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No he recently made a public appearance stating he is healthy. It was a unconfirmed report that he "was on the verge of death"
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Chavez's cancer has 'entered the end stage'
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No he recently made a public appearance stating he is healthy. It was a unconfirmed report that he "was on the verge of death"
Native Americans were never Socialists. And the unnamed countries that you are talking about are irrelevant to America. Most Americans do not want Socialism, you would have to force us to be Socialist. It just is not going to work period end of story.
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The Aymara in Bolivia and Peru where I worked as a Peace Corps volunteer for two years hold all of their land in common, that is to say, it all belongs to the village and can be worked by anyone. Any crops produced belong to the person who worked the fields, but the land itself is owned in common.
Such a system is pretty common among the native Americans. No one individual owns the means of production, instead, it is owned in common by the village.
Such socialism on a small scale is common and workable. It is when the "village" becomes a nation that such ideas fall apart.
Yes I realize that Leftists are control of other countries. But tell me the reasoning of Hugo Chavez removing the right to bear arms in his country? To stop the violence or is because he does not want to be taken out of office again?
Obviously it is hard to convince the government that you have an legit reason to own a firearm. I mean who goes hunting with a handgun?
Really? Have a link? Even if that is so they cannot use any long guns in their struggle.
So are you claiming to know exactly why Cuba has severe gun control? I really doubt that you know since a moment a go you were telling us that Cuba has no gun controls by asserting to us that gun ownership was protected in the Cuban constitution. But as I showed you that is not the case at all.
Video: Man bundled away for anti-communist protest at Pope's Mass in Cuba - Telegraph
Cuba news: Latest anti-government protest fizzles before Castro supporters | GlobalPost
BBC News - Cuban opposition activists arrested in Havana
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You already know the answer to this question we have already discussed this quite a while ago.
You are allowed to own a shotgun in Cuba however.
Right to keep and bear arms - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
No im stating neither do you know why they have a somewhat strict gun control...
I never stated that. Dont make up **** and try to put words in my mouth. I claimed that you are allowed to own firearms in Cuba (which you are).
It is
No you showed me that they have gun laws. Just because you have gun laws that restrict some firearms does not mean you are not allowed to own guns. You are allowed to own guns in cuba. Handguns and shotguns. You have to go through a process but you are allowed to own firearms.
Has nothing to do with guns in Cuba
Has nothing to do with this subject
[/QUOTE]
Has nothing to do with this subject.
Can we try to stay on subject here FreedomFromAll?
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you are right ,but no revolution takes form through an election in which most americans vote:roll:
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I was going to say I was happy he died, but then I wasn't sure if it were true, or if he actually murdered people. Some of the sources I read didn't indicate he was a murderer, but it's probable.
"When no other recourse is possible, all citizens have the right to struggle through all means, including armed struggle, against anyone who tries to overthrow the political, social and economic order established in this Constitution." Armed struggle is only allowed if you are fighting for the constitution and its government. And even in that event they sound reluctant to let citizens be armed. And sure you are allowed to own guns lol what you are missing is that it was not the will of the people who decided that the government gets to decide whether you can own a gun or not. You also are not talking about what happens when the government denies you the right to own a gun. AT that point you have no democratic avenue to take because its not a democracy its an dictatorship.
You cant just use the excuse that we do not know why owning guns in Cuba is heavily restricted by the government, not when historically we have a pretty good idea. And lets not gloss over the fact that Chavez decided that no civilian can own a firearm not even for hunting. All this makes Cuba and Venezuela a very bad example of Democratic Socialism. Which has been my point all along. All that I can assume since you have demonstrated over and over that you believe that Cuba and Venezuela are great models of Democratic Socialism is that those are the types of Socialism that you want. And as I have said and as others have said not over my dead body will I ever allow Democratic Socialism to take over America. Which was my other point that Democratic Socialism can never work since you would need to force it on a large part of any population in any country on Earth. And the only thing that is the result of gun controls is the eventual disarmament of the population. And if you know anything about America our Constitution our history you would understand that a healthy country can only survive as an armed country, its the only way to keep our Representatives truly in check.
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Uhhhh... Ok... :roll:
Except Fidel and the July 26 movement didnt think so at one time...
This isnt about Cuba also. If you wanna debate about Cuba we should take this somewhere else and try to stay on topic..
The constitution wasn't approved "by the people"? Neither was ours technically...
They allowed their elected officials approve of the constitution.
Well we really dont know the denial rates in Cuba to own a firearm.
Really we have a "historically good idea"?
1.)They are not a wealthy country (embargo to blame) so maybe civilian owning of firearms is not a huge deal to them
2.)Many countries have strict gun laws, is it so that they are worried that the people are going to overthrow the gov? Like France, GB, European countries? Plus you think if they really wanted to overthrow the gov do you think they are going to follow gun laws? I mean look at the IRA, revolutions going all throughout ME.
Not true. Allowed to own .22 and Shotguns.
Why because they dont believe that everyone should own a gun?
Im sorry but not everyone is gunho heavy throughout the world.
Plus your making this a huge deal over really not that big of a deal. They just have a different gun policy than us.. Get over it.
Your big problem with Chavez now is that they have a different gun law than us?
I never claimed that Cuba was a great example
Cool beans. Apparently you dont agree with the elctorial process in the USA if by some chance democratic socialism takes root in America in our lifetime you better get your guns ready i guess
Cool beans.
You need to learn the theory of a long distance runner
Sure.
So we went from Chavez = murderer. Then to jail riots=Chavez fault. Then to Chavez taking guns=bad. Then to Chavez=dictator. Then to Cuba. Now back to Chavez sucks because he is making strict gun laws to try to get the crime rate down=bad because thats bad.
Also if you would like to debate Cuba and their polical process please move to another thread and let me know by PM and i will gladly join ya
Venezuela and Cuba are intertwined as it is. Hugo Chavez is not shy about letting it be known that Castro is like a father to him.
No matter who approved it still is the Government dictating to the people on what should be basic rights.
Sure we do all we need to do is look at the results.
yes we have a historically good idea see pre WW2 Germany.
the current law on firearms in Cuba was a decree (Decree-Law 262 on firearms and ammunition). Now owning such things as a .22 rifle or shotgun is extremely difficult. Hence why the number of owners is so low in the Cuba only 1500 and some change rifles are owned by private citizens. Shotguns are about 43,000 owned but with a population of over a 11 million its a drop in the bucket. But at moments notice all of these firearms can be taken away in Cuba. All it takes is another decree law and they have all of the addresses on hand. WHich is how Hugo is able to disarm the population of Venezuela by making everyone register first then just showing up to retrieve the weapons.
It the right to own a gun that maters as all rights matter.
Hugo Chavez did not ask the people if they wanted their guns taken away.
Is Venezuela a great example of Democratic Socialism?
Yes I am aware of Leftist tactics. The use of propaganda the lies told to children to use them for eventual supremacy. Doesnt sound like a sustainable venture though.
Chavez = dictator pretty much covers all of it.
Cuban policy is simply "Do what the Castros want" there really is anything to debate in a dictatorship.Also if you would like to debate Cuba and their polical process please move to another thread and let me know by PM and i will gladly join ya
RGacky3
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Every government does that ...
How is that a right? Are the European countries that restrict gun rights (and the US) dictatorships because they do?
As much as Colombia is a great example of Capitalism ...
Only if you redefine the definition of dictator that would end up making Both Bush and Obama dictators.
You obviously have no knowledge of actual Cuban politics.
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Hugo has said Castro is a great friend and comrade. He is an ally. They are not "intertwined". Its not like what Castro says goes in Cuba.
What is a basic right in your opinion?
I believe basic rights are food, water, shelter, clothing, healthcare, education. I believe that the right to bear arms is a privileged right we have in this country, in which a lot of countries think differently about.
4.8% of people own firearms in a country where its kinda impoverished. Maybe you know their worries arent lets go buy guns!? Maybe they have different worries. And they are a pretty nonviolent people. Murder and crime rate is low there so they dont have much to worry about..
Huh?
what that even mean?
Source on that?
Do you have proof that the reason why most citizens dont own firearms is low is because of the government oppressing their right to own arms?
You do realize how much guns cost and how much the average monthly wage in Cuba is correct?
A moment notice all our guns can be taken away.. :roll:
Anywhere that can happen
Cool opinion.
Buts its not considered a right in all parts of the world... That is your humble opinion.
However they did call on him to lower crime. And he is trying to and this is one of the ways they are expirmenting with.
However you still are forgetting that you are allowed to own a gun with a permit in Venezuela.
They are using the process and ideology of Democratic Socialism to make life better in Venezuela.
This is why its kinda hard to debate with you a take you seriously.
Yep a democratically elected leader is a dictator. :roll:
With a national congress that is about 43% against him and media that hates him in his own country and eletcions where he allows people to run against him. Sounds like quite the dictator.
Yea you have no idea about Cuban politics.
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Chavez has launched his bid for presidency in front of supporters. Gave a very long speech and seems to be vibrant and claimed he is healthy.
Chavez and Capriles Launch Bid for Venezuelan Presidency | venezuelanalysis.com
Chavez and Capriles Launch Bid for Venezuelan Presidency | venezuelanalysis.com
So That means that Cuba and Venezuela are not better types of systems.
The concept is called hedging freedom.
The US not perfect there is alot that could be improved.
Is Venezuela a great example of Democratic Socialism? Nope wasnt a mention of Capitalism in that question.
Both Bush and Obama have married themselves to the Patriot Act which makes them both bad presidents. But even the Patriot Act did not come with a new Constitution. Over 95% of the Venezuelan government is controlled by CHavez political party. And I do mean Chavez's political party since he is also the president of it as well of other organizations. SO Venezuela is virtually a one party system, one party system ran by a single person is a dictatorship no matter how many people vote if there are no choices or very few its not what one would call democracy.
Yea thanx for the judgement you seem to full of them.
Yea nothing to see just move on huh?
Freedom. Nothing matters without freedom.
Thats a great excuse.
It means pick up a history book.
Seriously? Global Legal Information Network
Why isnt Cuba sustainable by now?
Industry: Types--sugar and food processing, oil refining, cement, electric power, light consumer and industrial products, pharmaceutical and biotech products.
Trade: Exports (2009)--$2.88 billion f.o.b.: nickel/cobalt, oil and oil derivatives, pharmaceutical and biotech products, sugar and its byproducts, tobacco, seafood, citrus, tropical fruits, coffee. Major export markets (2009)--Venezuela $533 million (19%); China $517 million (18%); Canada $434 million (15%); Netherlands $237 million (8%); Spain $155 million (5%); Russia $88 million (3%); Brazil $69 million (2%); Netherlands Antilles $59 million (2%); France $45 million (2%); others $742 million (26%). Imports (2009)--$8.91 billion f.o.b.: petroleum, food, machinery, chemicals. Major import suppliers (2009)--Venezuela $2.6 billion (29%); China $1.17 billion (13%); Spain $753 billion (8%); United States $675 million (8%); Brazil $509 million (6%); Italy $324 million (4%); Mexico $303 million (3%); Canada $292 million (3%); Vietnam $276 million (3%); Germany $275 million (3%); others $1.7 billion (19%).
Cuba has two currencies in circulation: the peso (CUP), and the convertible peso (CUC), both of which are fixed by the government. The CUC is fixed at 1:1 with the U.S. dollar, and 24:1 with the Cuban peso (CUP). State enterprises, however, must exchange CUP and CUC at a 1:1 ratio, an artificial rate that hinders domestic fiscal accounting. The Cuban Government levies a penalty of 10% on CUC-U.S. dollar transactions.
Cuba
Cuba seems to making out all right why is the population so poor then?
Not all guns are required to be registered everywhere.
Again its about freedom not the actual guns.
Yes right now you can own a gun in Venezuela with the proper papers but the plan for the immediate future is to disarm the entire civilian population of Venezuela. All guns soon will be banned no civiian will be able to own any firearm at all.
That would be an opinion. If you look closely Chavez's Government is loosely Democratic Socialist. Please dont tell me that you of all people dont know that?
Why because I am honest?
List of political parties in Venezuela - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia PSUV has 97 seats add the 2 seats held by the PPT plus add the PVC 1 So its 100 seats to 65 not really a fair fight considering that the opposition is splintered. So by default Chavez can do anything that he wants since at the very least he controls 97 seats.
lol thats a funny response not at all effective though.
So was he ever actually sick? All I have seen is a shaved head he certainly didnt loose the weight that one would expect with cancer treatments. Having had cancer I know a little about that. But dont take my word look it up.
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Similar in several ways.. but in all ways, no. In the context you are saying without in facts or source to back up your claim, no.
They have freedom.
Its not an excuse.
I have.
Still waiting on your point...
That states nothing in depth.
It goes beyond that costing the Cuban economy 4.155 billion per year.
http://www.dollarsandsense.org/archives/2009/0309pepper.htm
Also the Helms Burton act extends to foreign companies trading with Cuba.
Not really. Not with the Embargo.
In some countries yes...
This might come as a shocker to you but people have different definitions of freedom, and many countries believe that freedom does not entail that you should be able to purchase a firearms without registering them.
True, if they keep with the current program.
They have initiated programs using Democratic Socialism, but they are not a "Democratic socialist" country.
No. That is being the opposite of honest.
96 seats.
Plus all democratically elected. Thats like saying if the Republicans or Democrats gained a super majority then they would be dictators in your book...
Please enlighten me about Cuba in another thread. Because last time I checked this is about Venezuela not Cuba.
Im opposed to political parties since they are nothing but factions that do not represent all citizens equally. So yes in my book a super majority dictates to the minorities.
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Ignore the rest of the post... I gotcha....
Well that would go against inherently the concept of a dictator and a dictatorship.
Well that would go against inherently the concept of a dictator and a dictatorship.
There wasnt really anything else to comment on.
The situation in the US is not identical as it is in Venezuela. We actually have term limits on the Presidency. If say the Republicans obtained an super majority they will most certainly abuse that power. And they will do so while telling us that it is good for the country. Abortion will be outlawed social programs cut and so on. And if they maintain such power then they will start with the Christian crap until all things in government will be based on religion. And the only way that would happen is with such power they were able to dictate to the rest of us. Christians are already running telling us that they are the majority and we should get in line. What they lack though is a single person in the Presidency heading their dictatorship. So instead it would be a dictatorship by the majority. None of which could happen had this country remained a party less system. But our saving grace is the judicial system and the Constitutions power. Chavez on the other hand engineered his Constitution to make it easier for him to get his Bolivarian Revolution through the door and maintained. But the first thing that he did was to neuter the judicial system in Venezuela.
So despite previously being voted down he was able to finally eliminate term limits. And his excuse is solely based on the need for him to personally keep the Bolivarian Revolution going as if no one else can. If he really was a man of integrity he would have only served one term of maybe two. Not corrupt the system so that he can become a life long ruler. I mean why not change it to where he could serve say 6 terms or something that doesnt make him most likely to die of old age in office? there is no rational reason that a single individual needs to be the president for such an indefinite amount of time. There are likely hundreds or even thousands of average citizens that could and would do a better job why deny the peoples right to rule themselves? Term limits ensures that more people would get the chance to serve their country as President. IMO CHavez told the people of Venezuela that he does not trust them and therfore he must alone dictate the revolution. Its sounds a bit to egotistical.
The part that your missing is that Hugo Chavez even if legitimately or not elected is making decisions for the country that may or may not be voted on. The point is that the Bolivarian Revolution is Chavez's idea and his policy and his plan for the country. If there were no Hugo there would be no revolution. And make no mistake a dictator can be elected and even reelected. So when you assert that Chavez was fairly elected even if I were to believe that it still does not prove that he is not acting as an dictator.
RGacky3
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Not necessarily .... A: They are 2 different systems, B: just because every governemnt chooses what are rights, doesn't mean that one doesn't have better policies than another.
Yeah ... But that doesn't make it a right ... Is it a right to own a tank??? Or a fighter jet???
No **** ... But my point stands.
Restricting gun rights doesn't = dictatorship, if it did then every country is a dictatorship.
You didn't understand my answer, my answer is the answer to your question is relative ...
Its actually 48.2% (of the national assembly), you can't just make up facts because guess what ... We can look them up.
Also just because your the president of a party doesn't mean you can do anything or have total control over it.
Yo don't know what your talking about.
That still does not make either system better.
Y
Thats ridiculous, owning firearms does not compare to owning military vehicles.
That is a strawman argument since I do not assert that gun ownership alone is a bases of a dictatorship.
Here is what you did: me:"A is bad example of B." you: "C sucks!" Thats great that you have an opinion on Capitalism but its of no relevance.
There are 165 seats in the national assembly of those 97 are filled by chavez's party. And 2 more by communists allied with Chavez. And 1 more ally. Which is a lot more than 50%. Plus the national assembly is not all of the government. Not to mention that CHavez has the military in his portfolio.
Im not sure how you believe that such an fallacy will help your case.
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Right....
I could comment on plenty of stuff..
Never said it was.
Not until the early 50's.
Many countries dont have term limits. I personally think term limits should be removed.
And riots in the streets
You do realize this new Constitution was voted on by the people?
Specifics please.
Voted on by the people in a national referendum again....
Cool...
Sounds like a president. (If you dont vote for my x, y, and z will happen)
In your opinion right?
13 years is no where close to "life long".
I dont know?
Because many people around the world and many democracies around the world, see term limits are useless.
Sure there is.
If the people of the country beleive this leader is doing a great job and believe and like the programs and the way the leader is handling the business of government.
In your humble opinion correct?
Also "average citizens" in Venezuela are becoming leaders in their communities with the help of communes and workplace democracy.
Cool.
That is if they win...
Got a quote on this? Or is this another one of your humble opinons?
Have to be approved by the national assembly.
Yea cool.
I agree. But now without Hugo there will still be a continuation of his policies in my belief.
Well i guess in your opinion if someone is doing you disagree with then he is a dictator.
A dictator is a a ruler who is unconstrained by law. Hugo is restrained by law and the constitution.
I dont really need to comment on each and everything that you say. If there is a point that you are trying to make and I seem to have ignored it reword it and say it again.
I didn't say that you said so either.
true it wasn't until about 52 when the law included term limits. But there was an ethics code that most politicians followed that barred them to only two terms. Since it was the framers original intention to have term limits we latter actually made it Constitutional law. The main reasoning was that if there was the possibility that a president could run for life that there was also the possibility of tyranny as well. So we fixed something that should have been fixed from the start. But it was an hard dell to the Federalists, since the Federalists wanted to return to a monarchy. But they faded and never gained that kind of control..
My point still stands though that the judicial system is not intact in Venezuela. But I agree that in my example there would be riots and I would be one of them rioting.
Did the people know what they were voting for? It is widely known that the education system in Venezuela sucks and it really sucked when that vote was made.
Here is some: World Report 2011: Venezuela | Human Rights Watch
Again did they know what they were voting for?
Presidents dont usually totally reorganize a country as policy.
Yes
The power of the people does not revolve around one individual.
And what countries would that be?
Earlier you admitted that Chavez was no angel. No population keeps a ruler for too long unless they are forced. Lets see how this election goes.
It is those community leaders that should be given the chance to move up. No term limits denies those people the liberty to run on good faith.
Why promote a policy that would deny the common people a chance to run for office? How can a school teacher in Venezuela compete with Chavez?
Hmmm did you miss the IMO....
One that favors him.
In other words its an one man Revolution.
Well of course his brother will step up to the plate.
Hugo seems like he is able to do whatever he wants. Like build a 130million dollar resting place for Simon Bolivar. 130m could have done a lot for the poor people of Venezuela. Perhaps it will be Chavez's resting place? Again we will wait and see. Venezuela: Why the big mausoleum, Mr. Chavez? | GlobalPost
RGacky3
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Freedom for all
Well I dont' know about cuba, but Venezuela cut poverty in half, increased democratic participation, increased health care coverage and so on and so forth ....
Well your gonna need military vehicles to actually be able to keep power in check ... As you said was the point of firearm rights.
But you claim it leads to it.
My point was asking whether or not Venezuela is a great example of democratic socialism is a stupid question.
Yeah ... Its a representative democracy ... but its not 95% of the government ....
You havn't shown that Venezuela is anything more or less politically than a representative democracy, that happens to enact socail-democratic reforms.
Well I dont' know about cuba, but Venezuela cut poverty in half, increased democratic participation, increased health care coverage and so on and so forth ....
Well your gonna need military vehicles to actually be able to keep power in check ... As you said was the point of firearm rights.
But you claim it leads to it.
My point was asking whether or not Venezuela is a great example of democratic socialism is a stupid question.
Yeah ... Its a representative democracy ... but its not 95% of the government ....
You havn't shown that Venezuela is anything more or less politically than a representative democracy, that happens to enact socail-democratic reforms.
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