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Chavez's cancer has 'entered the end stage'

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Another one bites the dust.

Now, who's the next troublesome politician to die?

.....Castro?

Would we give a rat's ass about Chavez's health if Venezuela didn't have the same attraction as Iraq, Libya, Iran, Syria? It is about OIL and the USA corporations who want to control the distribution of the OIL. Corruption in Venezuela! Yes, much improved since Chavez has been in charge. Traded oil to Cuba for Doctors and healthcare. Chavez has helped the poor in Venezuela at the expense of the very wealthy that still control a great deal of the media in the Country. Someone referenced the OAS and indeed it is a toady of the USA and the CIA. I think they even endorsed the overthrow of Zelaya in Honduras. Jus' bidness, takin' care o' de' plantation.
 
Would we give a rat's ass about Chavez's health if Venezuela didn't have the same attraction as Iraq, Libya, Iran, Syria? It is about OIL and the USA corporations who want to control the distribution of the OIL. Corruption in Venezuela! Yes, much improved since Chavez has been in charge. Traded oil to Cuba for Doctors and healthcare. Chavez has helped the poor in Venezuela at the expense of the very wealthy that still control a great deal of the media in the Country. Someone referenced the OAS and indeed it is a toady of the USA and the CIA. I think they even endorsed the overthrow of Zelaya in Honduras. Jus' bidness, takin' care o' de' plantation.

there is another aspect that is important not to disregard
like castro and ahmadinejad and kim jong-il, chavez refused to genuflect in the face of American power (and intent)
that shows other nations and their people that it can actually be done without the contrarian leader then being deposed by the CIA
which must be disturbing to those who seek to continue our domineering and imperialistic ways
 
Hugo Chavez has been president since 1998, this we all know. We are all also aware that it is now the year 2012. less than a Month ago there was another prison riot. The cause was basically the same as the one that was in that video. Venezuela is raking billions in oil money why cant they pull every citizen out of poverty? Why must prisons be over populated to an extreme where it is inhumane to treat people in such a foul way? Why is that Chavez can travel to Cuba for cancer treatment while his people rot in prisons and on the streets?


Seriously how come there is some much corruption in Venezuela STILL? Hugo Chavez even ruled by decree and was unable to stop his country from having poverty and run away corruption? What exactly has Chavez achieved with his brand of Socialism in the 14 years that he has ruled?

Perhaps a dictatorship is not the best form of government after all.
 
Would we give a rat's ass about Chavez's health if Venezuela didn't have the same attraction as Iraq, Libya, Iran, Syria? It is about OIL and the USA corporations who want to control the distribution of the OIL. Corruption in Venezuela! Yes, much improved since Chavez has been in charge. Traded oil to Cuba for Doctors and healthcare. Chavez has helped the poor in Venezuela at the expense of the very wealthy that still control a great deal of the media in the Country. Someone referenced the OAS and indeed it is a toady of the USA and the CIA. I think they even endorsed the overthrow of Zelaya in Honduras. Jus' bidness, takin' care o' de' plantation.
Yea because Cuba has tons of oil right?
 
Hugo Chavez has been president since 1998, this we all know.
Yes i know.
So what?

We are all also aware that it is now the year 2012.
Yea.
So what?
less than a Month ago there was another prison riot.
Yes.
And this is Chavez's fault how?

The cause was basically the same as the one that was in that video.
What guns in the prison, gangs?
Behind the Venezuelan Prison Riots: the State of Venezuela
Read this if you wanna a perspective about the prison problem in Venezuela.

Venezuela is raking billions in oil money why cant they pull every citizen out of poverty?
:lamo
Why cant Saudia Arabia? Why cant Iraq? Why cant Canada? Why cant any oil rich country? Are you kidding me? You think if Venezuela dropped all social services, all gov payments to employees, and all other projects and assests working on and just threw all that money to the poor and wave some speical magic wand that everyone will jsut magically be pulled out of poverty? You think that is how government works and that the Venezuela gov has some magic anti poverty wand?
Dear god.... :doh
Can we be please realistic here? Or is this just a desperate attempt at some bull****?

Why must prisons be over populated to an extreme where it is inhumane to treat people in such a foul way?
Again: Behind the Venezuelan Prison Riots: the State of Venezuela

Why is that Chavez can travel to Cuba for cancer treatment
Because he was welcomed there.

while his people rot in prisons and on the streets?
Yep everyone is rotting on the streets now in Venezuela. Everyone is dying on the streets from hunger and this awful country ran by this awful man right?
See report: http://www.cepr.net/documents/publications/venezuela-2009-02.pdf



Seriously how come there is some much corruption in Venezuela STILL?
True Venezuela has historically been a very corrupt country. But corruption has gone down since the early 2000's (drastically).
Also in late 2009 Chavez initiated a very hard lined anti corrtuption campaign

Hugo Chavez even ruled by decree and was unable to stop his country from having poverty and run away corruption?
Dear god someone doesnt understand how rule of decree is gained in Venezuela and the exact power behind the rule of decree..
And again more of this unerealists bull****. \


What exactly has Chavez achieved with his brand of Socialism in the 14 years that he has ruled?
See report: http://www.cepr.net/documents/publications/venezuela-2009-02.pdf
"
  • The current economic expansion began when the government got control over the national oil company in the first quarter of 2003. Since then, real (inflationadjusted) GDP has nearly doubled, growing by 94.7 percent in 5.25 years, or 13.5 percent annually.
  • Most of this growth has been in the nonoil sector of the economy, and the private sector has grown faster than the public sector.
  • During the current economic expansion, the poverty rate has been cut by more than half, from 54 percent of households in the first half of 2003 to 26 percent at the end of 2008. Extreme poverty has fallen even more, by 72 percent. These poverty rates measure only cash income, and does take into account increased access to health care or education.
  • Over the entire decade, the percentage of households in poverty has been reduced by 39 percent, and extreme poverty by more than half.
  • Inequality, as measured by the Gini index, has also fallen substantially. The index has fallen to 41 in 2008, from 48.1 in 2003 and 47 in 1999. This represents a large reduction in inequality.
  • Real (inflationadjusted) social spending per person more than tripled from 1998-2006.
  • From 1998-2006, infant mortality has fallen by more than onethird. The number of primary care physicians in the public sector increased 12fold from 1999-2007, providing health care to millions of Venezuelans who previously did not have access.
  • There have been substantial gains in education, especially higher education, where gross enrollment rates more than doubled from 1999/2000 to 2007/2008.
  • The labor market also improved substantially over the last decade, with unemployment dropping from 11.3 percent to 7.8 percent. During the current expansion it has fallen by more than half. Other labor market indicators also show substantial gains.
  • Over the past decade, the number of social security beneficiaries has more than doubled.
  • Over the decade, the government's total public debt has fallen from 30.7 to 14.3 percent of GDP. The foreign public debt has fallen even more, from 25.6 to 9.8 percent of GDP.
  • Inflation is about where it was 10 years ago, ending the year at 31.4 percent. However it has been falling over the last half year (as measured by threemonth averages) and is likely to continue declining this year in the face of strong deflationary pressures worldwide."
 
Yes i know.
So what?


Yea.
So what?

Yes.
And this is Chavez's fault how?
Yes it is his watch and has been for over a decade. How many damn decades and rule by decree does a administration need to correct what should have been the priority?


What guns in the prison, gangs?
Behind the Venezuelan Prison Riots: the State of Venezuela
Read this if you wanna a perspective about the prison problem in Venezuela.
Yes Valenzuela state ran version of Foxnews will say anything that Chavez wants.


:lamo
Why cant Saudia Arabia? Why cant Iraq? Why cant Canada? Why cant any oil rich country? Are you kidding me? You think if Venezuela dropped all social services, all gov payments to employees, and all other projects and assests working on and just threw all that money to the poor and wave some speical magic wand that everyone will jsut magically be pulled out of poverty? You think that is how government works and that the Venezuela gov has some magic anti poverty wand?
Dear god.... :doh
Can we be please realistic here? Or is this just a desperate attempt at some bull****
? The government of Hugo Chavez has won more elections than nearly any other government in the world as a result of social policies to drastically reduce poverty and inequality by sharing the nation's oil wealth.Venezuela & the New Latin America: Socialism in the 21st Century | venezuelanalysis.com


Yes welcomed while his citizens cannot afford such luxuries.


Yep everyone is rotting on the streets now in Venezuela. Everyone is dying on the streets from hunger and this awful country ran by this awful man right?
See report: http://www.cepr.net/documents/publications/venezuela-2009-02.pdf
Yes I read that report a couple years ago. Here is something more recent Venezuelan Economy Grows But Rentier Model Deepens - Economia - El Universal The problem with a deepening rentier model lies on its unfeasibility. The number of exported barrels of oil has remained steady. In the meantime, the population grows and oil rising prices are not enough to get back to the wealth of the seventies.

The Venezuelan State is incapable of reducing poverty in a sustained manner through public service. Furthermore, a rentier scheme plus a confrontational stance with the private sector has resulted in few investments, insufficient jobs and low payment.

Had it not been for five and a half million underemployed Venezuelans, the unemployment rate would be outrageously at 51%.

In an attempt at offsetting an unfeasible oil income, President Hugo Chávez s administration quickly gets into more and more debt and fails to save a portion of the petrodollars, thus compromising the future.



True Venezuela has historically been a very corrupt country. But corruption has gone down since the early 2000's (drastically).
Also in late 2009 Chavez initiated a very hard lined anti corrtuption campaign


Dear god someone doesnt understand how rule of decree is gained in Venezuela and the exact power behind the rule of decree..
And again more of this unerealists bull****. \
says a report by the private intelligence firm Stratfor released by WikiLeaks.
[...]
Coruption has not gone down dramatically. “The country’s distorting and unsustainable currency exchange system is not only pushing more and more segments of the economy to the black market (which leads to a bigger inflation and the scarcity of basic products) but it also serves as a catalyzing agent for a broad money laundering scheme that seems to be going out of control and therefore weakening the government’s control of power,” the report said.

Read more here: WikiLeaks: Corruption stifling Venezuelan production in favor of imports | McClatchy[/COLOR][/I]

It was the out going legislators in Chavez's own party that gave him the power to rule by decree. Which Chavez used to nationalize much of the economy and to enact laws that benefit his political party. And he neutered the judicial system. generally he acted like a dictator while his people remained without proper employment and lacked clean drinking water in places. In fact the infrastructure is still crippled in much of the country. People are starving prisons are filling up yet again.


See report: http://www.cepr.net/documents/publications/venezuela-2009-02.pdf
"
  • The current economic expansion began when the government got control over the national oil company in the first quarter of 2003. Since then, real (inflationadjusted) GDP has nearly doubled, growing by 94.7 percent in 5.25 years, or 13.5 percent annually.
  • Most of this growth has been in the nonoil sector of the economy, and the private sector has grown faster than the public sector.
  • During the current economic expansion, the poverty rate has been cut by more than half, from 54 percent of households in the first half of 2003 to 26 percent at the end of 2008. Extreme poverty has fallen even more, by 72 percent. These poverty rates measure only cash income, and does take into account increased access to health care or education.
  • Over the entire decade, the percentage of households in poverty has been reduced by 39 percent, and extreme poverty by more than half.
  • Inequality, as measured by the Gini index, has also fallen substantially. The index has fallen to 41 in 2008, from 48.1 in 2003 and 47 in 1999. This represents a large reduction in inequality.
  • Real (inflationadjusted) social spending per person more than tripled from 1998-2006.
  • From 1998-2006, infant mortality has fallen by more than onethird. The number of primary care physicians in the public sector increased 12fold from 1999-2007, providing health care to millions of Venezuelans who previously did not have access.
  • There have been substantial gains in education, especially higher education, where gross enrollment rates more than doubled from 1999/2000 to 2007/2008.
  • The labor market also improved substantially over the last decade, with unemployment dropping from 11.3 percent to 7.8 percent. During the current expansion it has fallen by more than half. Other labor market indicators also show substantial gains.
  • Over the past decade, the number of social security beneficiaries has more than doubled.
  • Over the decade, the government's total public debt has fallen from 30.7 to 14.3 percent of GDP. The foreign public debt has fallen even more, from 25.6 to 9.8 percent of GDP.
  • Inflation is about where it was 10 years ago, ending the year at 31.4 percent. However it has been falling over the last half year (as measured by threemonth averages) and is likely to continue declining this year in the face of strong deflationary pressures worldwide."

One would hope that a country with so much oil can progress economically. But then: VENEZUELA: Poverty Stats Also Politicised - IPS ipsnews.net Nearly halfway to the 2015 deadline for the Millennium Development Goals (MDGs), the Economic Commission for Latin America and the Caribbean (ECLAC) has pointed to widely varying statistical gathering capacity in the region and discrepancies in indicators for measuring progress or setbacks in countries in the region.

According to ECLAC, the poverty rate in Venezuela has dropped 12 percent since Chávez first took office in 1999, when 49 percent of the population lived below the poverty line and 21 percent suffered extreme poverty.


And this:Another six countries would continue to reduce the incidence of extreme poverty, but at too slow a pace. These countries are Brazil, Costa Rica, El Salvador, Guatemala, Mexico and Nicaragua. The other five countries ?Bolivia, Ecuador, Paraguay, Peru and Venezuela? would actually see higher levels of extreme poverty due either to increases in inequality, decreases in per capita income, or both. CEPAL - Meeting the Millennium Poverty Reduction Targets in Latin America and the Caribbean
 
Interesting, but anonymous sources do not impress me.

Maybe he is close to death, maybe he is not...but I will assume little until I see facts or people on the record.
 
Yes it is his watch and has been for over a decade. How many damn decades and rule by decree does a administration need to correct what should have been the priority?
Prisons were not the priority of Venezuela. The priority of Venezuela is still poverty, and crime on the streets.
And plus his whole rule he has not had the "power to rule by decree". He has only had 2 or 3 times for several months at a time. The longest he has had it in one time was for 18 months in 2007.


Yes Valenzuela state ran version of Foxnews will say anything that Chavez wants.
Of course who would thought you just play it off and actually not cite any sources within the article or the detail of the article.. :roll:



? The government of Hugo Chavez has won more elections than nearly any other government in the world as a result of social policies to drastically reduce poverty and inequality by sharing the nation's oil wealth.Venezuela & the New Latin America: Socialism in the 21st Century | venezuelanalysis.com
Cool.
Whats your point? Initiating a popular policy and continuing with the policy of taking oil revenue and helping the poor..
Funny also how you just play off the Venezuela Analysis then you use the exact same post... Hypocritical dont you think?


Yes welcomed while his citizens cannot afford such luxuries.
They have socialized medicine in Venezuela as well..
The reason the population was given why Chavez went to Cuba for cancer treatment was because, while he was on a trip to Cuba, that is where he found out he had cancer, and they advised him to keep on coming back to see the same team of medical professionals.



Yes I read that report a couple years ago. Here is something more recent Venezuelan Economy Grows But Rentier Model Deepens - Economia - El Universal The problem with a deepening rentier model lies on its unfeasibility. The number of exported barrels of oil has remained steady. In the meantime, the population grows and oil rising prices are not enough to get back to the wealth of the seventies.

The Venezuelan State is incapable of reducing poverty in a sustained manner through public service. Furthermore, a rentier scheme plus a confrontational stance with the private sector has resulted in few investments, insufficient jobs and low payment.

Had it not been for five and a half million underemployed Venezuelans, the unemployment rate would be outrageously at 51%.

In an attempt at offsetting an unfeasible oil income, President Hugo Chávez s administration quickly gets into more and more debt and fails to save a portion of the petrodollars, thus compromising the future.
Respectably that doesnt seem much of a long term analysis overall... Seems like a quick piece written in a newspaper. (Wait i thougth Chavez censored all dissent in Venezuela? :roll: ) It seems to only focus on the problems the oil area of the economy.Then it states that they want to go back to the seventies? But how did Venezuela do so well in the seventies? Through strong public programs, the oil sector. Then it goes and dismisses public employees as not a way to advance the economy?


says a report by the private intelligence firm Stratfor released by WikiLeaks.

[...]
Coruption has not gone down dramatically. “The country’s distorting and unsustainable currency exchange system is not only pushing more and more segments of the economy to the black market (which leads to a bigger inflation and the scarcity of basic products) but it also serves as a catalyzing agent for a broad money laundering scheme that seems to be going out of control and therefore weakening the government’s control of power,” the report said.

Read more here: WikiLeaks: Corruption stifling Venezuelan production in favor of imports | McClatchy[/COLOR][/I]
[/QUOTE]
One incident on rotten food in a harbor makes it "corrupt" because of a incident of government mismanagement?
How about these incidents?
Venezuela Combats Crisis by Fighting Corruption, Bureaucracy | venezuelanalysis.com
Venezuelan Immigration and ID Organisation Combating State Corruption | venezuelanalysis.com
Pro Chavez officials being arrested and charged for corrupt issues: Pro- and Anti-Chavez Public Servants Disqualified for Acts of Corruption in Venezuela | venezuelanalysis.com (that damn evil dictator arresting his own officials)


It was the out going legislators in Chavez's own party that gave him the power to rule by decree.
Which time?
Which year?

Which Chavez used to nationalize much of the economy and to enact laws that benefit his political party. And he neutered the judicial system. generally he acted like a dictator while his people remained without proper employment and lacked clean drinking water in places. In fact the infrastructure is still crippled in much of the country.
In 2007 he was given the power to rule by decree for 18 months. The powers he was given are to give the exec brance more leeway to establish laws to reorganize the tax structure, and public transportation. This rule by decree must be passed by the National Assembly, and is allowed under the constitution. Chavez is not the first president of Venezuela to use this power either. Carlos Andres Perez was given the right (and he was a great ally to the US government, not outrage there), Jamie Lusinchim, and Ramon Jose Velasquez. This is when no body cared about Venezuela at the time because they were just being good little people in Venezuela allowing corporate powers do whatever the **** they wanted in Venezuela. But then comes big bad Chavez nationalizing sectors of the economy, and giving the revenue to the people and establishing social programs. Awwhhh the outrage!
Anyways back to the rule by decree in 2007. He was given it for 18 months, and can pass laws in several areas the ones stated earlier plus, in areas at corruption, increasing gov efficiency, and social services to the poor. Also what should be noted that any of the laws passed under the decree can be modified or scrathced by the national assembly at any time and the population of Venezuela has the power to nullify any of these laws through a referendum.
Instead of viewing the radical social changed going on in Venezuela just because they do not fit the neo-liberal model that is "so popular" by the World Bank to reform a country Chavez and the people of Venezuela has decided to take a different route.

People are starving prisons are filling up yet again.
Yep you have a source on people starving in prisons? Just like people dying in the street claim, by you? Never saw a source on that either.


One would hope that a country with so much oil can progress economically. But then: VENEZUELA: Poverty Stats Also Politicised - IPS ipsnews.net Nearly halfway to the 2015 deadline for the Millennium Development Goals (MDGs), the Economic Commission for Latin America and the Caribbean (ECLAC) has pointed to widely varying statistical gathering capacity in the region and discrepancies in indicators for measuring progress or setbacks in countries in the region.

According to ECLAC, the poverty rate in Venezuela has dropped 12 percent since Chávez first took office in 1999, when 49 percent of the population lived below the poverty line and 21 percent suffered extreme poverty.
???
Also from 2006...
And this:Another six countries would continue to reduce the incidence of extreme poverty, but at too slow a pace. These countries are Brazil, Costa Rica, El Salvador, Guatemala, Mexico and Nicaragua. The other five countries ?Bolivia, Ecuador, Paraguay, Peru and Venezuela? would actually see higher levels of extreme poverty due either to increases in inequality, decreases in per capita income, or both. CEPAL - Meeting the Millennium Poverty Reduction Targets in Latin America and the Caribbean
See date.....2002.
More updated report (the most independent NGO report) has been linked
"During the current economic expansion, the poverty rate has been cut by more than half, from 54 percent of households in the first half of 2003 to 26 percent at the end of 2008. Extreme poverty has fallen even more, by 72 percent. These poverty rates measure only cash income, and does take into account increased access to health care or education."
"
Over the entire decade, the percentage of households in poverty has been reduced by 39 percent, and extreme poverty by more than half."

Please if your going to try to prove a point dont use sources that are 10+years old...
 
As I said before people use Chavez as an shining example of Democratic socialism. They will even try to sugar coat it and say that its just like Europe, mainly they will mean the Netherlands. And the purpose is to convince us that Democratic Socialism is the cure all government model that we need in America and the entire planet viva! all kinds of **** occupy the world and all of that in your face I dont care what you think BS.

The first problem with Chavez and his Bolivarian Revolution is that he is promoting Participatory democracy. Participatory democracy is easily corrupted and results in the majority dictating to the minority. Participatory democracy causes fragmentation of the population since if you do not agree with the majority you have no recourse but to join or start a new faction in a attempt to have your voice heard. The occupy movement show cased just how this works and the results. The occupy movement splintered into factions and now you mostly just hear from the more radical factions in the occupy movement.

The second problem with Chavez and his Bolivarian Revolution is that his political party The United Socialist Party of Venezuela is self described as the "political vanguard of the revolutionary process". This should set of alarms at the very least since this is not a Democratic socialism concept at all. Instead it is a Communist concept (notice the big C). Vanguardism is nothing more than a political party trying to dictate to the population what single ideology that the country can have. Also Vanguardism promotes only one single political party as the only choice. And if you look at Chavez's progress it is quit obvious that his plan is for there to be no opposition political parties in Venezuela.
 
As I said before people use Chavez as an shining example of Democratic socialism. They will even try to sugar coat it and say that its just like Europe, mainly they will mean the Netherlands. And the purpose is to convince us that Democratic Socialism is the cure all government model that we need in America and the entire planet viva! all kinds of **** occupy the world and all of that in your face I dont care what you think BS.

The first problem with Chavez and his Bolivarian Revolution is that he is promoting Participatory democracy. Participatory democracy is easily corrupted and results in the majority dictating to the minority. Participatory democracy causes fragmentation of the population since if you do not agree with the majority you have no recourse but to join or start a new faction in a attempt to have your voice heard. The occupy movement show cased just how this works and the results. The occupy movement splintered into factions and now you mostly just hear from the more radical factions in the occupy movement.

The second problem with Chavez and his Bolivarian Revolution is that his political party The United Socialist Party of Venezuela is self described as the "political vanguard of the revolutionary process". This should set of alarms at the very least since this is not a Democratic socialism concept at all. Instead it is a Communist concept (notice the big C). Vanguardism is nothing more than a political party trying to dictate to the population what single ideology that the country can have. Also Vanguardism promotes only one single political party as the only choice. And if you look at Chavez's progress it is quit obvious that his plan is for there to be no opposition political parties in Venezuela.

If he is against elections, then why has he been elected 8 times against organized opposition, a very wealthy opposition. I wonder why it is the wealthy? He is helping the indigenous and the poor disproportionately from the wealthy. The 1% is making lots of noise, but l have never seen an election where any voters decided to give their money to the 1%. Not knowingly, that is. It is SOP. More so since Citizens United. I actually like Castro. We, the USA, have tried to punish, embargo, kill, and economically strangle Cuba, but they have the best medical care in the Western hemisphere and the lowest carbon footprint. Again, Castro might be good for Cubans and bad for bankers, mafia, Rockefellers, rum traders. sugar traders, gamblers and con men. They thrive in the USA. Does that mean something?
 
If he is against elections, then why has he been elected 8 times against organized opposition, a very wealthy opposition. I wonder why it is the wealthy? He is helping the indigenous and the poor disproportionately from the wealthy. The 1% is making lots of noise, but l have never seen an election where any voters decided to give their money to the 1%. Not knowingly, that is. It is SOP. More so since Citizens United. I actually like Castro. We, the USA, have tried to punish, embargo, kill, and economically strangle Cuba, but they have the best medical care in the Western hemisphere and the lowest carbon footprint. Again, Castro might be good for Cubans and bad for bankers, mafia, Rockefellers, rum traders. sugar traders, gamblers and con men. They thrive in the USA. Does that mean something?

No they don,t have the best medical care in the western hemisphere, not even close! What they have is a free health care system with large numbers of doctors, but very little in the way of equipment or medecine. The medical tourist areas are wll supplied but those are for party elites and non Cubans who pay. The average Cuban has access to a doctor, but not necessarily to medecine or treatment. In fact if you were allowed to visit Cuba you would find that there are a fair amount of doctors not working as doctors but as staff at hotels as they have a better standard of living. As to lowest carbon footprint, if actually true that would be more due to it's very weak economy more than any green thinking on Cuba's part. Cuba is drilling for oil like crazy and finding more and more
Oil reserves in Cuba - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I have little doubt this will make their carbon footprint increase drastically.
Though I agree that the US handling of Cuba with the embargo is the wrong way to go. Please tell me why you like Fidel? He is a dictator (well was, it's his brother now) the pretense at democracy is very slim in Cuba. Political freedom is pretty much nonexistant and poltical prisoners are filing the prisons.
Cuba
Just because someone says he's on the left and for the poor does not mean he actually is for anything but himself (he/she could be for the poor but history is replete with examples of the opposite, Fidel, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot etc..). forget the left/right propoganda, Fidel is on the left because that is what he used to gain power, not because he gives a crap about the average poor Cuban. Mussolini was origianlly a socialist be we went over to the right because he saw it as a better way to get power for himself. If Mussolini continued left wing rhetoric instead of switching to right wing rhetoric it would not have changed his actions or made him a better person.
 
If he is against elections, then why has he been elected 8 times against organized opposition, a very wealthy opposition. I wonder why it is the wealthy? He is helping the indigenous and the poor disproportionately from the wealthy. The 1% is making lots of noise, but l have never seen an election where any voters decided to give their money to the 1%. Not knowingly, that is. It is SOP. More so since Citizens United. I actually like Castro. We, the USA, have tried to punish, embargo, kill, and economically strangle Cuba, but they have the best medical care in the Western hemisphere and the lowest carbon footprint. Again, Castro might be good for Cubans and bad for bankers, mafia, Rockefellers, rum traders. sugar traders, gamblers and con men. They thrive in the USA. Does that mean something?
Against elections? I didnt say that Chavez was against elections. A wealthy opposition ok how much are they spending? Why is that money not working out for them? Cuba is a dictatorship they only let you know what they want you to know even if its not the truth.
 
No they don,t have the best medical care in the western hemisphere, not even close! What they have is a free health care system with large numbers of doctors, but very little in the way of equipment or medecine. The medical tourist areas are wll supplied but those are for party elites and non Cubans who pay. The average Cuban has access to a doctor, but not necessarily to medecine or treatment. In fact if you were allowed to visit Cuba you would find that there are a fair amount of doctors not working as doctors but as staff at hotels as they have a better standard of living. As to lowest carbon footprint, if actually true that would be more due to it's very weak economy more than any green thinking on Cuba's part. Cuba is drilling for oil like crazy and finding more and more
Oil reserves in Cuba - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I have little doubt this will make their carbon footprint increase drastically.
Though I agree that the US handling of Cuba with the embargo is the wrong way to go. Please tell me why you like Fidel? He is a dictator (well was, it's his brother now) the pretense at democracy is very slim in Cuba. Political freedom is pretty much nonexistant and poltical prisoners are filing the prisons.
Cuba
Just because someone says he's on the left and for the poor does not mean he actually is for anything but himself (he/she could be for the poor but history is replete with examples of the opposite, Fidel, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot etc..). forget the left/right propoganda, Fidel is on the left because that is what he used to gain power, not because he gives a crap about the average poor Cuban. Mussolini was origianlly a socialist be we went over to the right because he saw it as a better way to get power for himself. If Mussolini continued left wing rhetoric instead of switching to right wing rhetoric it would not have changed his actions or made him a better person.

The embargo that the USA has kept in force against Cuba for 60 years has caused most of Cuba's problems. Shortages of everything. The USA figured we'd cause the people great discomfort, pain, tragedy, impoverisation, starvation, etc. until they decided to get rid of Castro. I can only presume Castro outsmarted us. I remember Cuba before Castro. Gambling, mafia, rum, sugar, Rockefellers, banks, cigars, and every type of Corporate big money crook. Castro is a step up. As for the medical care, see how much care you get in this country without money.
 
The embargo that the USA has kept in force against Cuba for 60 years has caused most of Cuba's problems. Shortages of everything. The USA figured we'd cause the people great discomfort, pain, tragedy, impoverisation, starvation, etc. until they decided to get rid of Castro. I can only presume Castro outsmarted us. I remember Cuba before Castro. Gambling, mafia, rum, sugar, Rockefellers, banks, cigars, and every type of Corporate big money crook. Castro is a step up. As for the medical care, see how much care you get in this country without money.

So what you are saying is that its ok to have a dictatorship if it appears that you might get health coverage?
 
The embargo that the USA has kept in force against Cuba for 60 years has caused most of Cuba's problems. Shortages of everything. The USA figured we'd cause the people great discomfort, pain, tragedy, impoverisation, starvation, etc. until they decided to get rid of Castro. I can only presume Castro outsmarted us. I remember Cuba before Castro. Gambling, mafia, rum, sugar, Rockefellers, banks, cigars, and every type of Corporate big money crook. Castro is a step up. As for the medical care, see how much care you get in this country without money.

You give the US embargo too much credit, way too much credit. Cuba, untill the collapse of the Soviet Union, recieved aid from there. Also the embargo was not accompanied with a blockade (aside from during the Cuban missle crisis). After the collapse Cuba began to open up the county to foreign investment. Spanish companies were at the forefront of this and that is why there are so many hotels run by Spanish chains in Cuba. The lack of foreign investment was not caused by the US embargo but rather Cuban (read Fidel's) political and economic agenda. He only modified these when he had no choice. China is starting to make a big push into Cuba these days, largely due to oil reserves there. Spain is receding again largely due to Spanish economic difficulties.

As to medical care:
If you are poor and no insurance in the USA or just an average Cuban (ie poor) you get into an accident you go to hospital they WILL take care of you. Only difference is in the USA the poor guy will have accesss to medical equipment(xrays etc) drugs et all that the Cuban may not have access to. Afterwards the American will get a bill that he won't pay because he's poor. In this scenario I'd rather be American. Same situation for the people but you have cancer. Lets face it either way you are screwed! in the USA you can't afford the treatment in Cuba you just can't get it.

Now go to middle class american without insurance vs average Cuban. same situation for the accident, though this time the American will pay for treatment, though it could cause financial hardship. Now go to cancer. American will experience severe economic hardship/possible bankruptcy. But they may come out of it alive, or treatment fails or they run out of $$ for treatment. The average Cuban is just screwed!

Average American with insurance vs Cuabn party elite. either way you are good unless as an american you get your insurance taken away.

Rich American/top level politican vs Cuban party elite pretty much no difference.

Average Cuban vs Canadian. No contest Canadian is better off.
Cuban party elite vs average Canadian. Probably better off as the Cuban elite.
Problem is there aren't that many Cuban elites.

So I will state once again that Cuba does not have the best medical care in the western hemisphere. What they have is lots of doctors without proper equipment/supplies. Many of whom leave medicine after their 3 years are up (university is free in Cuba, if you study medicine you are obliged to be a doctor for 3 years afterwards then can do somethign else if you want/can find something). It is a typical example of centralized planning, they want great health care for their people so they train lots of doctors, only they don't have the economy to support their health care plans, lack of equipment/medecine etc. Result is you get people claiming Cuba has best medical care in western hemisphere based on number of doctors they have but the truth is that the medical care sucks unless you are a rich foreigner or party elite.

I would also like to know why you have so much respect for Fidel?
 
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Is this a response to me?
Or did you just decide to give up?

As I said before people use Chavez as an shining example of Democratic socialism.
Yea whats your point?

They will even try to sugar coat it and say that its just like Europe,
Dear god no... :doh
This statement is almost hysterical.

mainly they will mean the Netherlands.
No again. I have never heard anyone say this.

And the purpose is to convince us that Democratic Socialism is the cure all government model that we need in America and the entire planet viva! all kinds of **** occupy the world and all of that in your face I dont care what you think BS.
Oh god here comes the incoherent soapbox babbling.


The first problem with Chavez and his Bolivarian Revolution is that he is promoting Participatory democracy.
He is.

Participatory democracy is easily corrupted and results in the majority dictating to the minority.
Of course it is? :roll:
Who woulda thought giving people power to decide on issues that affect their communities, villages, and cities, would be a bad thing.

Participatory democracy causes fragmentation of the population since if you do not agree with the majority you have no recourse but to join or start a new faction in a attempt to have your voice heard.
Ummm political parties have done this a long time ago in a all societies.


The occupy movement show cased just how this works and the results. The occupy movement splintered into factions and now you mostly just hear from the more radical factions in the occupy movement.
Uhhh no not at all.

Please tell me how Participatory Democracy is not working out for Venezuela? And not some analysis on your opinions of Participatory Democar

The second problem with Chavez and his Bolivarian Revolution is that his political party The United Socialist Party of Venezuela is self described as the "political vanguard of the revolutionary process".
Ahhh they used Marxist terminology!!!!
:scared:
They used that scary word "Vanguard"!

This should set of alarms at the very least since this is not a Democratic socialism concept at all. Instead it is a Communist concept (notice the big C). Vanguardism is nothing more than a political party trying to dictate to the population what single ideology that the country can have.
Ues the USPV is doing a real job dictating that, you know with democratic elections and the Coalition for Democratic Unity controls 47% (64 seats) of the National Assembly. I guess they are doing a real good job "dictating" society...

Also Vanguardism promotes only one single political party as the only choice.
Except the USPV is pretty much a coalition type party with other left wing parties and maintains close contacts with other left wing parties. (This is quite the conspiracy your tracking down, almost in a Glenn Beck type matter, with you find some keywords(Vanguard) and you go on from there).
Plus with elections and other parties in the National Assembly this pretty much makes this whole "vanguard" **** complete bull****

And if you look at Chavez's progress it is quit obvious that his plan is for there to be no opposition political parties in Venezuela.
Yea... Spreading democracy to the people, allowing free and fair elections... Really doing all this you laid out... :yawn:

Got anymore bs?
 
Is this a response to me?
Or did you just decide to give up?


Yea whats your point?


Dear god no... :doh
This statement is almost hysterical.


No again. I have never heard anyone say this.


Oh god here comes the incoherent soapbox babbling.



He is.


Of course it is? :roll:
Who woulda thought giving people power to decide on issues that affect their communities, villages, and cities, would be a bad thing.


Ummm political parties have done this a long time ago in a all societies.



Uhhh no not at all.

Please tell me how Participatory Democracy is not working out for Venezuela? And not some analysis on your opinions of Participatory Democar


Ahhh they used Marxist terminology!!!!
:scared:
They used that scary word "Vanguard"!


Ues the USPV is doing a real job dictating that, you know with democratic elections and the Coalition for Democratic Unity controls 47% (64 seats) of the National Assembly. I guess they are doing a real good job "dictating" society...


Except the USPV is pretty much a coalition type party with other left wing parties and maintains close contacts with other left wing parties. (This is quite the conspiracy your tracking down, almost in a Glenn Beck type matter, with you find some keywords(Vanguard) and you go on from there).
Plus with elections and other parties in the National Assembly this pretty much makes this whole "vanguard" **** complete bull****


Yea... Spreading democracy to the people, allowing free and fair elections... Really doing all this you laid out... :yawn:

Got anymore bs?

You are right, I did give up trying to debate with you. It is because I observed that you are an kool-aid addict. No matter what I show you, you will refuse to accept any of it. Statements like: Dear god no...
This statement is almost hysterical. ....... Ahhh they used Marxist terminology!!!! They used that scary word "Vanguard"! ....... (This is quite the conspiracy your tracking down, almost in a Glenn Beck type matter, with you find some keywords(Vanguard) and you go on from there)...... **** complete bull****.........Got anymore bs?
Shows that you are not here for honest debate. Obviously your tactic is to piss me off so that I either say something stupid or disappear and quit pointing out the obvious signs that Hugo Chavez is not a champion of freedom. Which the truth is that not once have you mentioned freedom, you just espouse that the elections seem free to you and that the people are getting stuff. Freedom never fits into the socialist equation. In fact large portions of the peoples freedom are always sacrificed for the so called greater good of society. In reality Hugo Chavez is just a puppet of Cuba. Sure he has his own ambitions but without Cuba he would not still be president of Venezuela. Plus Chavez can live only so long so him as a threat is really minimal at best. The real danger lies in the possibility of civil war in Venezuela. Most likely Cuba would protect its assets.

Have you ever heard this slogan? "No Army is Revolutionary" Hugo Chavez is putting large amounts of money into Venezuela's armed forces. Arms from Russia and so on, and the excuse is that the US might invade. Show me anywhere that shows that we want to invade Venezuela. Sure we have interest in toppling Chavez but no where have we even gave a sign of wanting to occupy Venezuela. Yet Hugo Chavez will go on for hours telling his country about the US wants to take Venezuela. Lol you speak of conspiracy theories while Chavez keeps asserting his own conspiracy theories. Some are just funny some are just as crazy as Castros or like that nut in Iran.

This is where the Marxist analysis comes in. In the rush to support an emerging
"revolutionary" situation in South America, many radicals have completely
forgotten that capitalism is not just some form of government, but a mode of
production that is not isolated in one nation, class, or done away with simply
by having the workers run "their" own factories. Chávez very skillfully keeps
the attention on policy differences with the US government so as to throw up a
smokescreen with which to hide the fact that he is actually marching right in
step with neo-liberal globalization's grand scheme for the region.
What possible use is it to go on and on about how unjust the war in Iraq is, for
instance, when Halliburton remains the chief services contractor for PDVSA?
How enormously distracting is it for Chávez to play verbal war games with
Condoleezza Rice while welcoming Chevron - the murderous company she
once directed - into the country with open arms, even calling them "great
friends of the revolutionary process"?
On the one hand, Venezuela's oil nationalization left much of the industry's
infrastructure undeveloped, and building relationships with the transnationals
is the only way to overcome this without immediately bankrupting the country.
Chávez certainly can't hope to go from relying solely on oil and importing up
to 80% of Venezuela's food, to a completely "sovereign" and self-sufficient
nation overnight... but on the other hand there is absolutely nothing to suggest
that he is doing anything other than trying to deepen this dependency. Under
the banner of socialism and with slogans of "development", Chávez has presided over the biggest handover of national resources in Venezuela's history.
And how else could they possibly hope to do it? In late 2003 Bolivia nearly
went through a revolution just at the suggestion of privatization. Chávez, on
the other hand, is such a "revolutionary" that he can sign over the rights to the
massive offshore Deltana Platform - which will create a "dead zone" in the
ocean and have access to more gas reserves than ALL of Bolivia combined -
and nobody will even realize that it just happened!
For Chávez, anything that brings in money from the country's energy reserves
(combined, the largest in the world) is positive. His single driving goal is to
convert Venezuela into the number one energy producing country on earth -
and for this to happen he relies not only on the transnationals, but the continuity of the capitalist system that consumes that energy. Despite scattered references to "the environment", he has absolutely no intention of developing or
providing the alternative energy solutions necessary to reduce economic dependency on the oil market. In fact, the only type of energy Chávez seems to
be interested in that doesn't come from gas, petrol, or coal... is nuclear.


[...]Of all the people we met around Plaza Bolívar and the streets of Western Caracas, by far the most interesting was a fellow Tupamaro, probably in his thirties,
who pulled me aside and explained, "What we need to do is line up all those
politicians in the National Assembly and have them machine-gunned." Entirely
in agreement - but still wanting to play devil's advocate - I asked, "What about
[Gustavo] Cisneros?" By his reply I knew he hadn't been joking around, "You
need to forget about Cisneros, that guy has already escaped; all those people
are long gone, and they took the money with them. The ones you need to pay
attention to, the people who are robbing us right now - are the same ones who
are in this 'revolutionary' government."
To fully understand the dramatic nature of his viewpoint, one has to realize that
in last year's elections, officialist parties took total control of the National Assembly, meaning that this particular Tupamaro was proposing the assassination
of some of the country's most "revolutionary" and committed Chavistas.
http://www.redanarchist.org/propaganda/pamphlets/civilwarinvenezuela.pdf


Even the extreme Left recognize that Chavez is not all that he claims. In fact you sound more like an hack than anything else. All that you seem to be able to do is ad hominem little interludes while trying to evade the fact that Hugo Chavez is not the good guy. It seems that the Extreme Left is just using him and hoping that he will be a good little doggy and as soon as he is no longer useful for the movement off with his head. I wonder how they will like Adan Chavez?
 
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This reporter has been told that Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez has metastatic rhabdomyosarcoma, an aggressive cancer that has "entered the end stage". The information and the quote come from a highly respected source close to Chavez and who is in a position to know his medical condition and history. This source says the prognosis is dire and that Chavez is now not expected to live "more than a couple of months at most." Chavez is running for re-elec tion in Venezuela but several sources--including the one who revealed the exact kind of cancer-- have told me that they believe it is doubtful the dictator will live to see the results.


Report: Chavez's cancer has 'entered the end stage' - Yahoo! News


I'll not get all maudlin about this story. He was a dictator and it's way past time he gave up the job.
 
You are right, I did give up trying to debate with you. It is because I observed that you are an kool-aid addict. No matter what I show you, you will refuse to accept any of it. Statements like: Dear god no...
This statement is almost hysterical. ....... Ahhh they used Marxist terminology!!!! They used that scary word "Vanguard"! ....... (This is quite the conspiracy your tracking down, almost in a Glenn Beck type matter, with you find some keywords(Vanguard) and you go on from there)...... **** complete bull****.........Got anymore bs?
:lamo
I'm not here for a "honest debate"? You tried to use economic sources from 2002 to apply to today's economic standards in Venezuela. You blaim literally anything that goes wrong in Venezuelas prisons, with statements of along the lines of "its Chavez's fault that some guards shot tear gas at a prisoners riot and called them pigs". You claim that people uphold Venezuela's democratic socialism to the standards of Europeans political and socio-economic systems. You claim that Venezuela is turning into a state ruled by one "vanguard" party, when clearly its not.
Shall i go on?

Shows that you are not here for honest debate.
No it shows how idiotic i take this claims at face value. (Which is part of debating.)

Obviously your tactic is to piss me off so that I either say something stupid or disappear and quit pointing out the obvious signs that Hugo Chavez is not a champion of freedom.
No thats not my "tactic" at all. My "tactic" is to speak my mind and try to find something supplemental to debate on after reading your responses. Which is getting harder and harder to find. But then you dont respond to points made by my posts.

Which the truth is that not once have you mentioned freedom,
Freedom? Are people in Venezuela "not free"?

you just espouse that the elections seem free to you and that the people are getting stuff.
Well THEY ARE free and fair. Many NGO reports have confirmed this.
You have even admitted this.

Freedom never fits into the socialist equation.
This is why its hard to take you seriously.

In fact large portions of the peoples freedom are always sacrificed for the so called greater good of society.
Do you have the freedom to starve?
Do you have the freedom to no housing?
Do you have the freedom to be dictated by a boss at work?
Do you have the freedom to no health care?
Socialism is applying democracy and freedom into the workplace. Workers owning the means of production democratically.
"Privatization is a neoliberal and imperialist plan. Health can’t be privatized because it is a fundamental human right, nor can education, water, electricity and other public services. They can’t be surrendered to private capital that denies the people from their rights."-Hugo Chavez
In reality Hugo Chavez is just a puppet of Cuba.
Hmm source on this?
See statements like these are hard to take seriously without any proof or any thought into them at all.
Why would Hugo Chavez (a anti imperialist) be a puppet of Cuba (who are anti imperialist)?
They are allied states and Chavez has developed close relations with the Castro bros and various other Cuba officials but he is no way a "puppet". They are allies.

Sure he has his own ambitions but without Cuba he would not still be president of Venezuela.
:dohAnd why do you state this?
The way Latin America is turning out right now i defiantly im gonna raise the BS flag. Look at all the leftists being elected in Latin America. Take a look at the Pink Tide: Pink tide - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Chavez was just the beginning.

Plus Chavez can live only so long so him as a threat is really minimal at best.
He was a big "threat" to America that they supported a coup against him.
And what kind of "threat" are we talking about here? Is it the FOX News claim that he is "more dangerous than Al Qaeda"?
Or is it the threat that he aint so good for US corporate profits?

The real danger lies in the possibility of civil war in Venezuela.
I doubt that a democracy is going to break out into a civil war. Maybe a few riots but civil war na...

Most likely Cuba would protect its assets.
What assets? Cheap oil to Cuba for doctors to come to Venezuela?


Have you ever heard this slogan? "No Army is Revolutionary"
No
I would disagree with that slogan

Hugo Chavez is putting large amounts of money into Venezuela's armed forces.
Ok...... They were an outdated army... Moderninizing it problem aint a bad idea..


Arms from Russia and so on,
Ok... Russia makes pretty damn cheap arms

and the excuse is that the US might invade.
Well Colombia a massive US ally has bases right next door to Venezuela, and we did try to overthrow him in a armed coup, and we do support opposition parties with millions of dollars and history shows that the killing a left wing leader we dont like VIA CIA, or other resources is not out of the picture.
True i think Chavez might be a little paranoid on this claim if i was a leader of a left wing party in Latin America i wouldnt take US supported invasion or coups out of the picture.

Show me anywhere that shows that we want to invade Venezuela.
Operation Balboa, which was a supposed simulation but who knows if it will ever be actually used.
US Supported Coup 2002
And rhetoric

Sure we have interest in toppling Chavez but no where have we even gave a sign of wanting to occupy Venezuela. Yet Hugo Chavez will go on for hours telling his country about the US wants to take Venezuela.
Well we do "want to take" (neoliberally speaking) Venezuela. Why else would we support a coup against him?

Lol you speak of conspiracy theories while Chavez keeps asserting his own conspiracy theories. Some are just funny some are just as crazy as Castros or like that nut in Iran.
Castros conspiracy theory?

This is where the Marxist analysis comes in. In the rush to support an emerging
"revolutionary" situation in South America, many radicals have completely
forgotten that capitalism is not just some form of government, but a mode of
production that is not isolated in one nation, class, or done away with simply
by having the workers run "their" own factories. Chávez very skillfully keeps
the attention on policy differences with the US government so as to throw up a
smokescreen with which to hide the fact that he is actually marching right in
step with neo-liberal globalization's grand scheme for the region.
What possible use is it to go on and on about how unjust the war in Iraq is, for
instance, when Halliburton remains the chief services contractor for PDVSA?
How enormously distracting is it for Chávez to play verbal war games with
Condoleezza Rice while welcoming Chevron - the murderous company she
once directed - into the country with open arms, even calling them "great
friends of the revolutionary process"?

So you claimed they were "a Marxist vanguard party", now this whole article just pretty much claims they are not Marxist and are in fact neoliberal?
Your going around and around contradicting yourself you do realize this right?



On the one hand, Venezuela's oil nationalization left much of the industry's
infrastructure undeveloped, and building relationships with the transnationals
is the only way to overcome this without immediately bankrupting the country.
Chávez certainly can't hope to go from relying solely on oil and importing up
to 80% of Venezuela's food, to a completely "sovereign" and self-sufficient
nation overnight... but on the other hand there is absolutely nothing to suggest
that he is doing anything other than trying to deepen this dependency. Under
the banner of socialism and with slogans of "development", Chávez has presided over the biggest handover of national resources in Venezuela's history.
And how else could they possibly hope to do it? In late 2003 Bolivia nearly
went through a revolution just at the suggestion of privatization. Chávez, on
the other hand, is such a "revolutionary" that he can sign over the rights to the
massive offshore Deltana Platform - which will create a "dead zone" in the
ocean and have access to more gas reserves than ALL of Bolivia combined -
and nobody will even realize that it just happened!
For Chávez, anything that brings in money from the country's energy reserves
(combined, the largest in the world) is positive. His single driving goal is to
convert Venezuela into the number one energy producing country on earth -
and for this to happen he relies not only on the transnationals, but the continuity of the capitalist system that consumes that energy. Despite scattered references to "the environment", he has absolutely no intention of developing or
providing the alternative energy solutions necessary to reduce economic dependency on the oil market. In fact, the only type of energy Chávez seems to
be interested in that doesn't come from gas, petrol, or coal... is nuclear.
Hmm interesting analysis, and opinion piece.


[...]Of all the people we met around Plaza Bolívar and the streets of Western Caracas, by far the most interesting was a fellow Tupamaro, probably in his thirties,
who pulled me aside and explained, "What we need to do is line up all those
politicians in the National Assembly and have them machine-gunned." Entirely
in agreement - but still wanting to play devil's advocate - I asked, "What about
[Gustavo] Cisneros?" By his reply I knew he hadn't been joking around, "You
need to forget about Cisneros, that guy has already escaped; all those people
are long gone, and they took the money with them. The ones you need to pay
attention to, the people who are robbing us right now - are the same ones who
are in this 'revolutionary' government."
To fully understand the dramatic nature of his viewpoint, one has to realize that
in last year's elections, officialist parties took total control of the National Assembly, meaning that this particular Tupamaro was proposing the assassination
of some of the country's most "revolutionary" and committed Chavistas.
http://www.redanarchist.org/propaganda/pamphlets/civilwarinvenezuela.pdf
Interesting analysis by an anarcho-communist.
Whats your point?

Even the extreme Left recognize that Chavez is not all that he claims.
Well he is an anarcho-communist. Meaning he believes there should be no state.. And many far left wingers claim that Chavez is "not revolutionary enough." Youll get that with the left. You have your authoritain socialists etc. who claim he is not living up to Marxism and making the transition from capitalism to socialism fast enough.. Or youll have you anarchists who claim that he is just another statist tool. Or youll have the democratic socialists and other various leftists who believe that it should be up to the people and the vote.

In fact you sound more like an hack than anything else.
You hurt my feelings.

All that you seem to be able to do is ad hominem little interludes while trying to evade the fact that Hugo Chavez is not the good guy.
Well you have not lead me to believe that he is some sort of authoritarian figure what your trying to make it out to sound because you really have not offered anything convensing other than "why doesnt he stop these prison riots" or "why did he use a newly created police force to bring down crime" or "well the elections were free and fair they werent because he used bad rhetoric!" And then you bring up "well he is creating a Marxist vanguard party" and then you bring in a anarcho-communists opinion as evidence that claims that Chavez is no marxist.

It seems that the Extreme Left is just using him and hoping that he will be a good little doggy and as soon as he is no longer useful for the movement off with his head.
Well your "extreme left" opinion piece you just listed says he sucks..

I wonder how they will like Adan Chavez?
I dont know? Will he get the nomination if Chavez is truly going to die in like a month?
 
If 'workers owning the means of production democratically' was such a virtue, people would do so voluntarily. There would be no need for statist strongmen like Chavez to come along and nationalize (steal) existing for-profit private enterprises. You want to work in a collectivized corporation? Start one up. No one is stopping you.
 
If 'workers owning the means of production democratically' was such a virtue, people would do so voluntarily. There would be no need for statist strongmen like Chavez to come along and nationalize (steal) existing for-profit private enterprises. You want to work in a collectivized corporation? Start one up. No one is stopping you.

Yes im sure foreign companies and the rich will either just give up their companies, and im sure its just that easy especially in a country like Venezuela.
 
it doesn't matter much..... when he finally croaks, one of his ardent compatriots will take the helm...he's guaranteed as much by crushing political opponent/parties.

Socialists and Communists are good like that... it's all about democracy.. jail and oppress political opponents and you are free to choose their party... or their party.. political freedom baby!
 
If 'workers owning the means of production democratically' was such a virtue, people would do so voluntarily. There would be no need for statist strongmen like Chavez to come along and nationalize (steal) existing for-profit private enterprises. You want to work in a collectivized corporation? Start one up. No one is stopping you.

there's a few businesses that do start up like that... then they gets slapped into reality when they find out that somebody has to be the boss... from there, it's a quick slide into the pits of evil greedy oppressive capitalism that sucks the very soul from the living.
 
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