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Thread: Chavez's cancer has 'entered the end stage'

  1. #171
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    Re: Chavez's cancer has 'entered the end stage'

    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFromAll View Post
    You are right, I did give up trying to debate with you. It is because I observed that you are an kool-aid addict. No matter what I show you, you will refuse to accept any of it. Statements like: Dear god no...
    This statement is almost hysterical. ....... Ahhh they used Marxist terminology!!!! They used that scary word "Vanguard"! ....... (This is quite the conspiracy your tracking down, almost in a Glenn Beck type matter, with you find some keywords(Vanguard) and you go on from there)...... **** complete bull****.........Got anymore bs?

    I'm not here for a "honest debate"? You tried to use economic sources from 2002 to apply to today's economic standards in Venezuela. You blaim literally anything that goes wrong in Venezuelas prisons, with statements of along the lines of "its Chavez's fault that some guards shot tear gas at a prisoners riot and called them pigs". You claim that people uphold Venezuela's democratic socialism to the standards of Europeans political and socio-economic systems. You claim that Venezuela is turning into a state ruled by one "vanguard" party, when clearly its not.
    Shall i go on?

    Shows that you are not here for honest debate.
    No it shows how idiotic i take this claims at face value. (Which is part of debating.)

    Obviously your tactic is to piss me off so that I either say something stupid or disappear and quit pointing out the obvious signs that Hugo Chavez is not a champion of freedom.
    No thats not my "tactic" at all. My "tactic" is to speak my mind and try to find something supplemental to debate on after reading your responses. Which is getting harder and harder to find. But then you dont respond to points made by my posts.

    Which the truth is that not once have you mentioned freedom,
    Freedom? Are people in Venezuela "not free"?

    you just espouse that the elections seem free to you and that the people are getting stuff.
    Well THEY ARE free and fair. Many NGO reports have confirmed this.
    You have even admitted this.

    Freedom never fits into the socialist equation.
    This is why its hard to take you seriously.

    In fact large portions of the peoples freedom are always sacrificed for the so called greater good of society.
    Do you have the freedom to starve?
    Do you have the freedom to no housing?
    Do you have the freedom to be dictated by a boss at work?
    Do you have the freedom to no health care?
    Socialism is applying democracy and freedom into the workplace. Workers owning the means of production democratically.
    "Privatization is a neoliberal and imperialist plan. Health can’t be privatized because it is a fundamental human right, nor can education, water, electricity and other public services. They can’t be surrendered to private capital that denies the people from their rights."-Hugo Chavez

    In reality Hugo Chavez is just a puppet of Cuba.
    Hmm source on this?
    See statements like these are hard to take seriously without any proof or any thought into them at all.
    Why would Hugo Chavez (a anti imperialist) be a puppet of Cuba (who are anti imperialist)?
    They are allied states and Chavez has developed close relations with the Castro bros and various other Cuba officials but he is no way a "puppet". They are allies.

    Sure he has his own ambitions but without Cuba he would not still be president of Venezuela.
    And why do you state this?
    The way Latin America is turning out right now i defiantly im gonna raise the BS flag. Look at all the leftists being elected in Latin America. Take a look at the Pink Tide: Pink tide - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Chavez was just the beginning.

    Plus Chavez can live only so long so him as a threat is really minimal at best.
    He was a big "threat" to America that they supported a coup against him.
    And what kind of "threat" are we talking about here? Is it the FOX News claim that he is "more dangerous than Al Qaeda"?
    Or is it the threat that he aint so good for US corporate profits?

    The real danger lies in the possibility of civil war in Venezuela.
    I doubt that a democracy is going to break out into a civil war. Maybe a few riots but civil war na...

    Most likely Cuba would protect its assets.
    What assets? Cheap oil to Cuba for doctors to come to Venezuela?


    Have you ever heard this slogan? "No Army is Revolutionary"
    No
    I would disagree with that slogan

    Hugo Chavez is putting large amounts of money into Venezuela's armed forces.
    Ok...... They were an outdated army... Moderninizing it problem aint a bad idea..


    Arms from Russia and so on,
    Ok... Russia makes pretty damn cheap arms

    and the excuse is that the US might invade.
    Well Colombia a massive US ally has bases right next door to Venezuela, and we did try to overthrow him in a armed coup, and we do support opposition parties with millions of dollars and history shows that the killing a left wing leader we dont like VIA CIA, or other resources is not out of the picture.
    True i think Chavez might be a little paranoid on this claim if i was a leader of a left wing party in Latin America i wouldnt take US supported invasion or coups out of the picture.

    Show me anywhere that shows that we want to invade Venezuela.
    Operation Balboa, which was a supposed simulation but who knows if it will ever be actually used.
    US Supported Coup 2002
    And rhetoric

    Sure we have interest in toppling Chavez but no where have we even gave a sign of wanting to occupy Venezuela. Yet Hugo Chavez will go on for hours telling his country about the US wants to take Venezuela.
    Well we do "want to take" (neoliberally speaking) Venezuela. Why else would we support a coup against him?

    Lol you speak of conspiracy theories while Chavez keeps asserting his own conspiracy theories. Some are just funny some are just as crazy as Castros or like that nut in Iran.
    Castros conspiracy theory?

    This is where the Marxist analysis comes in. In the rush to support an emerging
    "revolutionary" situation in South America, many radicals have completely
    forgotten that capitalism is not just some form of government, but a mode of
    production that is not isolated in one nation, class, or done away with simply
    by having the workers run "their" own factories. Chávez very skillfully keeps
    the attention on policy differences with the US government so as to throw up a
    smokescreen with which to hide the fact that he is actually marching right in
    step with neo-liberal globalization's grand scheme for the region.
    What possible use is it to go on and on about how unjust the war in Iraq is, for
    instance, when Halliburton remains the chief services contractor for PDVSA?
    How enormously distracting is it for Chávez to play verbal war games with
    Condoleezza Rice while welcoming Chevron - the murderous company she
    once directed - into the country with open arms, even calling them "great
    friends of the revolutionary process"?

    So you claimed they were "a Marxist vanguard party", now this whole article just pretty much claims they are not Marxist and are in fact neoliberal?
    Your going around and around contradicting yourself you do realize this right?



    On the one hand, Venezuela's oil nationalization left much of the industry's
    infrastructure undeveloped, and building relationships with the transnationals
    is the only way to overcome this without immediately bankrupting the country.
    Chávez certainly can't hope to go from relying solely on oil and importing up
    to 80% of Venezuela's food, to a completely "sovereign" and self-sufficient
    nation overnight... but on the other hand there is absolutely nothing to suggest
    that he is doing anything other than trying to deepen this dependency. Under
    the banner of socialism and with slogans of "development", Chávez has presided over the biggest handover of national resources in Venezuela's history.
    And how else could they possibly hope to do it? In late 2003 Bolivia nearly
    went through a revolution just at the suggestion of privatization. Chávez, on
    the other hand, is such a "revolutionary" that he can sign over the rights to the
    massive offshore Deltana Platform - which will create a "dead zone" in the
    ocean and have access to more gas reserves than ALL of Bolivia combined -
    and nobody will even realize that it just happened!
    For Chávez, anything that brings in money from the country's energy reserves
    (combined, the largest in the world) is positive. His single driving goal is to
    convert Venezuela into the number one energy producing country on earth -
    and for this to happen he relies not only on the transnationals, but the continuity of the capitalist system that consumes that energy. Despite scattered references to "the environment", he has absolutely no intention of developing or
    providing the alternative energy solutions necessary to reduce economic dependency on the oil market. In fact, the only type of energy Chávez seems to
    be interested in that doesn't come from gas, petrol, or coal... is nuclear.
    Hmm interesting analysis, and opinion piece.


    [...]Of all the people we met around Plaza Bolívar and the streets of Western Caracas, by far the most interesting was a fellow Tupamaro, probably in his thirties,
    who pulled me aside and explained, "What we need to do is line up all those
    politicians in the National Assembly and have them machine-gunned." Entirely
    in agreement - but still wanting to play devil's advocate - I asked, "What about
    [Gustavo] Cisneros?" By his reply I knew he hadn't been joking around, "You
    need to forget about Cisneros, that guy has already escaped; all those people
    are long gone, and they took the money with them. The ones you need to pay
    attention to, the people who are robbing us right now - are the same ones who
    are in this 'revolutionary' government."
    To fully understand the dramatic nature of his viewpoint, one has to realize that
    in last year's elections, officialist parties took total control of the National Assembly, meaning that this particular Tupamaro was proposing the assassination
    of some of the country's most "revolutionary" and committed Chavistas.
    http://www.redanarchist.org/propagan...nvenezuela.pdf
    Interesting analysis by an anarcho-communist.
    Whats your point?

    Even the extreme Left recognize that Chavez is not all that he claims.
    Well he is an anarcho-communist. Meaning he believes there should be no state.. And many far left wingers claim that Chavez is "not revolutionary enough." Youll get that with the left. You have your authoritain socialists etc. who claim he is not living up to Marxism and making the transition from capitalism to socialism fast enough.. Or youll have you anarchists who claim that he is just another statist tool. Or youll have the democratic socialists and other various leftists who believe that it should be up to the people and the vote.

    In fact you sound more like an hack than anything else.
    You hurt my feelings.

    All that you seem to be able to do is ad hominem little interludes while trying to evade the fact that Hugo Chavez is not the good guy.
    Well you have not lead me to believe that he is some sort of authoritarian figure what your trying to make it out to sound because you really have not offered anything convensing other than "why doesnt he stop these prison riots" or "why did he use a newly created police force to bring down crime" or "well the elections were free and fair they werent because he used bad rhetoric!" And then you bring up "well he is creating a Marxist vanguard party" and then you bring in a anarcho-communists opinion as evidence that claims that Chavez is no marxist.

    It seems that the Extreme Left is just using him and hoping that he will be a good little doggy and as soon as he is no longer useful for the movement off with his head.
    Well your "extreme left" opinion piece you just listed says he sucks..

    I wonder how they will like Adan Chavez?
    I dont know? Will he get the nomination if Chavez is truly going to die in like a month?


  2. #172
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    Re: Chavez's cancer has 'entered the end stage'

    If 'workers owning the means of production democratically' was such a virtue, people would do so voluntarily. There would be no need for statist strongmen like Chavez to come along and nationalize (steal) existing for-profit private enterprises. You want to work in a collectivized corporation? Start one up. No one is stopping you.

  3. #173
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    Re: Chavez's cancer has 'entered the end stage'

    Quote Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
    If 'workers owning the means of production democratically' was such a virtue, people would do so voluntarily. There would be no need for statist strongmen like Chavez to come along and nationalize (steal) existing for-profit private enterprises. You want to work in a collectivized corporation? Start one up. No one is stopping you.
    Yes im sure foreign companies and the rich will either just give up their companies, and im sure its just that easy especially in a country like Venezuela.


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    Re: Chavez's cancer has 'entered the end stage'

    it doesn't matter much..... when he finally croaks, one of his ardent compatriots will take the helm...he's guaranteed as much by crushing political opponent/parties.

    Socialists and Communists are good like that... it's all about democracy.. jail and oppress political opponents and you are free to choose their party... or their party.. political freedom baby!

  5. #175
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    Re: Chavez's cancer has 'entered the end stage'

    Quote Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
    If 'workers owning the means of production democratically' was such a virtue, people would do so voluntarily. There would be no need for statist strongmen like Chavez to come along and nationalize (steal) existing for-profit private enterprises. You want to work in a collectivized corporation? Start one up. No one is stopping you.
    there's a few businesses that do start up like that... then they gets slapped into reality when they find out that somebody has to be the boss... from there, it's a quick slide into the pits of evil greedy oppressive capitalism that sucks the very soul from the living.

  6. #176
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    Re: Chavez's cancer has 'entered the end stage'

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemSocialist View Post
    Yes im sure foreign companies and the rich will either just give up their companies, and im sure its just that easy especially in a country like Venezuela.
    Well, that was sort of my point. People like yourself who want public control of corporations, lack the ability to create such corporations. So you steal them from those who possess the drive, the ability and the virtue you lack. The socialist is not a creator, but a parasite. Which, incidentally, is why socialism is such a failure.

  7. #177
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    Re: Chavez's cancer has 'entered the end stage'

    "Have you ever heard this slogan? "No Army is Revolutionary" Hugo Chavez is putting large amounts of money into Venezuela's armed forces. Arms from Russia and so on, and the excuse is that the US might invade. Show me anywhere that shows that we want to invade Venezuela. Sure we have interest in toppling Chavez but no where have we even gave a sign of wanting to occupy Venezuela. Yet Hugo Chavez will go on for hours telling his country about the US wants to take Venezuela. Lol you speak of conspiracy theories while Chavez keeps asserting his own conspiracy theories. Some are just funny some are just as crazy as Castros or like that nut in Iran."


    Iraq/OIL, we invade. Libya/OIL, we invade. Iran/OIL, we threaten to invade. We have a $700 billion per year military offense budget that seems to work for the OIL corporations and you don't think Chavez has cause for concern. I don't think he has purchased enough arms. It's the real world and our Nation starts wars for OIL.. I did talk to a guy that lived in a cave on an island that didn't know about that because his telepathy was detuned by heavy carbon concentrations.

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    Re: Chavez's cancer has 'entered the end stage'

    How many trillions of dollars has Chavez added to Venezuala's national debt? How many war's around the globe has he intiated? how many countries has he occupied?

  9. #179
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    Re: Chavez's cancer has 'entered the end stage'

    Quote Originally Posted by DaveFagan View Post


    Iraq/OIL, we invade. Libya/OIL, we invade. Iran/OIL, we threaten to invade. We have a $700 billion per year military offense budget that seems to work for the OIL corporations and you don't think Chavez has cause for concern. I don't think he has purchased enough arms. It's the real world and our Nation starts wars for OIL.. I did talk to a guy that lived in a cave on an island that didn't know about that because his telepathy was detuned by heavy carbon concentrations.
    Wow you should have offered that guy a beer.


    Yes its all a big conspiracy everything is about oil. Including the reason that Cuba would give a rats ass about Venezuela.

  10. #180
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    Re: Chavez's cancer has 'entered the end stage'

    Quote Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
    Well, that was sort of my point. People like yourself who want public control of corporations, lack the ability to create such corporations. So you steal them from those who possess the drive, the ability and the virtue you lack. The socialist is not a creator, but a parasite. Which, incidentally, is why socialism is such a failure.

    Yep my Fuhrer im a dirty parasite that needs to be re-educated to have that "entrepreneurial spirit" to create a corporation ship jobs to 3rd world countries hoard natural resources and need to learn to exploit the lesser 3rd world citizens and pay them ****ty wages and export all profits out of that 3rd world country. And then when those parasitic socialists come to power and nationalize the resources that i once "owned" and nationalize and give the profits to the people to fund social and national campaigns I should go to and report to my fellow corporate ran media stations that this socialist guy is actually a dictator and "stole my resources" and is evil. Then i should hit up my CIA buddies and say hey this guy sucks he is taking away my profits maybe we should support a coup against this democratically elected and popular "dictator" who just happens to be a socialist and we should support a violent coup against him!

    Now who the **** is that "parasite"?


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