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Thread: Chavez's cancer has 'entered the end stage'

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    Re: Chavez's cancer has 'entered the end stage'

    As I said before people use Chavez as an shining example of Democratic socialism. They will even try to sugar coat it and say that its just like Europe, mainly they will mean the Netherlands. And the purpose is to convince us that Democratic Socialism is the cure all government model that we need in America and the entire planet viva! all kinds of **** occupy the world and all of that in your face I dont care what you think BS.

    The first problem with Chavez and his Bolivarian Revolution is that he is promoting Participatory democracy. Participatory democracy is easily corrupted and results in the majority dictating to the minority. Participatory democracy causes fragmentation of the population since if you do not agree with the majority you have no recourse but to join or start a new faction in a attempt to have your voice heard. The occupy movement show cased just how this works and the results. The occupy movement splintered into factions and now you mostly just hear from the more radical factions in the occupy movement.

    The second problem with Chavez and his Bolivarian Revolution is that his political party The United Socialist Party of Venezuela is self described as the "political vanguard of the revolutionary process". This should set of alarms at the very least since this is not a Democratic socialism concept at all. Instead it is a Communist concept (notice the big C). Vanguardism is nothing more than a political party trying to dictate to the population what single ideology that the country can have. Also Vanguardism promotes only one single political party as the only choice. And if you look at Chavez's progress it is quit obvious that his plan is for there to be no opposition political parties in Venezuela.

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    Re: Chavez's cancer has 'entered the end stage'

    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFromAll View Post
    As I said before people use Chavez as an shining example of Democratic socialism. They will even try to sugar coat it and say that its just like Europe, mainly they will mean the Netherlands. And the purpose is to convince us that Democratic Socialism is the cure all government model that we need in America and the entire planet viva! all kinds of **** occupy the world and all of that in your face I dont care what you think BS.

    The first problem with Chavez and his Bolivarian Revolution is that he is promoting Participatory democracy. Participatory democracy is easily corrupted and results in the majority dictating to the minority. Participatory democracy causes fragmentation of the population since if you do not agree with the majority you have no recourse but to join or start a new faction in a attempt to have your voice heard. The occupy movement show cased just how this works and the results. The occupy movement splintered into factions and now you mostly just hear from the more radical factions in the occupy movement.

    The second problem with Chavez and his Bolivarian Revolution is that his political party The United Socialist Party of Venezuela is self described as the "political vanguard of the revolutionary process". This should set of alarms at the very least since this is not a Democratic socialism concept at all. Instead it is a Communist concept (notice the big C). Vanguardism is nothing more than a political party trying to dictate to the population what single ideology that the country can have. Also Vanguardism promotes only one single political party as the only choice. And if you look at Chavez's progress it is quit obvious that his plan is for there to be no opposition political parties in Venezuela.
    If he is against elections, then why has he been elected 8 times against organized opposition, a very wealthy opposition. I wonder why it is the wealthy? He is helping the indigenous and the poor disproportionately from the wealthy. The 1% is making lots of noise, but l have never seen an election where any voters decided to give their money to the 1%. Not knowingly, that is. It is SOP. More so since Citizens United. I actually like Castro. We, the USA, have tried to punish, embargo, kill, and economically strangle Cuba, but they have the best medical care in the Western hemisphere and the lowest carbon footprint. Again, Castro might be good for Cubans and bad for bankers, mafia, Rockefellers, rum traders. sugar traders, gamblers and con men. They thrive in the USA. Does that mean something?

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    Re: Chavez's cancer has 'entered the end stage'

    Quote Originally Posted by DaveFagan View Post
    If he is against elections, then why has he been elected 8 times against organized opposition, a very wealthy opposition. I wonder why it is the wealthy? He is helping the indigenous and the poor disproportionately from the wealthy. The 1% is making lots of noise, but l have never seen an election where any voters decided to give their money to the 1%. Not knowingly, that is. It is SOP. More so since Citizens United. I actually like Castro. We, the USA, have tried to punish, embargo, kill, and economically strangle Cuba, but they have the best medical care in the Western hemisphere and the lowest carbon footprint. Again, Castro might be good for Cubans and bad for bankers, mafia, Rockefellers, rum traders. sugar traders, gamblers and con men. They thrive in the USA. Does that mean something?
    No they don,t have the best medical care in the western hemisphere, not even close! What they have is a free health care system with large numbers of doctors, but very little in the way of equipment or medecine. The medical tourist areas are wll supplied but those are for party elites and non Cubans who pay. The average Cuban has access to a doctor, but not necessarily to medecine or treatment. In fact if you were allowed to visit Cuba you would find that there are a fair amount of doctors not working as doctors but as staff at hotels as they have a better standard of living. As to lowest carbon footprint, if actually true that would be more due to it's very weak economy more than any green thinking on Cuba's part. Cuba is drilling for oil like crazy and finding more and more
    Oil reserves in Cuba - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    I have little doubt this will make their carbon footprint increase drastically.
    Though I agree that the US handling of Cuba with the embargo is the wrong way to go. Please tell me why you like Fidel? He is a dictator (well was, it's his brother now) the pretense at democracy is very slim in Cuba. Political freedom is pretty much nonexistant and poltical prisoners are filing the prisons.
    Cuba
    Just because someone says he's on the left and for the poor does not mean he actually is for anything but himself (he/she could be for the poor but history is replete with examples of the opposite, Fidel, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot etc..). forget the left/right propoganda, Fidel is on the left because that is what he used to gain power, not because he gives a crap about the average poor Cuban. Mussolini was origianlly a socialist be we went over to the right because he saw it as a better way to get power for himself. If Mussolini continued left wing rhetoric instead of switching to right wing rhetoric it would not have changed his actions or made him a better person.
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    Re: Chavez's cancer has 'entered the end stage'

    Quote Originally Posted by DaveFagan View Post
    If he is against elections, then why has he been elected 8 times against organized opposition, a very wealthy opposition. I wonder why it is the wealthy? He is helping the indigenous and the poor disproportionately from the wealthy. The 1% is making lots of noise, but l have never seen an election where any voters decided to give their money to the 1%. Not knowingly, that is. It is SOP. More so since Citizens United. I actually like Castro. We, the USA, have tried to punish, embargo, kill, and economically strangle Cuba, but they have the best medical care in the Western hemisphere and the lowest carbon footprint. Again, Castro might be good for Cubans and bad for bankers, mafia, Rockefellers, rum traders. sugar traders, gamblers and con men. They thrive in the USA. Does that mean something?
    Against elections? I didnt say that Chavez was against elections. A wealthy opposition ok how much are they spending? Why is that money not working out for them? Cuba is a dictatorship they only let you know what they want you to know even if its not the truth.

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    Re: Chavez's cancer has 'entered the end stage'

    Quote Originally Posted by Quag View Post
    No they don,t have the best medical care in the western hemisphere, not even close! What they have is a free health care system with large numbers of doctors, but very little in the way of equipment or medecine. The medical tourist areas are wll supplied but those are for party elites and non Cubans who pay. The average Cuban has access to a doctor, but not necessarily to medecine or treatment. In fact if you were allowed to visit Cuba you would find that there are a fair amount of doctors not working as doctors but as staff at hotels as they have a better standard of living. As to lowest carbon footprint, if actually true that would be more due to it's very weak economy more than any green thinking on Cuba's part. Cuba is drilling for oil like crazy and finding more and more
    Oil reserves in Cuba - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    I have little doubt this will make their carbon footprint increase drastically.
    Though I agree that the US handling of Cuba with the embargo is the wrong way to go. Please tell me why you like Fidel? He is a dictator (well was, it's his brother now) the pretense at democracy is very slim in Cuba. Political freedom is pretty much nonexistant and poltical prisoners are filing the prisons.
    Cuba
    Just because someone says he's on the left and for the poor does not mean he actually is for anything but himself (he/she could be for the poor but history is replete with examples of the opposite, Fidel, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot etc..). forget the left/right propoganda, Fidel is on the left because that is what he used to gain power, not because he gives a crap about the average poor Cuban. Mussolini was origianlly a socialist be we went over to the right because he saw it as a better way to get power for himself. If Mussolini continued left wing rhetoric instead of switching to right wing rhetoric it would not have changed his actions or made him a better person.
    The embargo that the USA has kept in force against Cuba for 60 years has caused most of Cuba's problems. Shortages of everything. The USA figured we'd cause the people great discomfort, pain, tragedy, impoverisation, starvation, etc. until they decided to get rid of Castro. I can only presume Castro outsmarted us. I remember Cuba before Castro. Gambling, mafia, rum, sugar, Rockefellers, banks, cigars, and every type of Corporate big money crook. Castro is a step up. As for the medical care, see how much care you get in this country without money.

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    Re: Chavez's cancer has 'entered the end stage'

    Quote Originally Posted by DaveFagan View Post
    The embargo that the USA has kept in force against Cuba for 60 years has caused most of Cuba's problems. Shortages of everything. The USA figured we'd cause the people great discomfort, pain, tragedy, impoverisation, starvation, etc. until they decided to get rid of Castro. I can only presume Castro outsmarted us. I remember Cuba before Castro. Gambling, mafia, rum, sugar, Rockefellers, banks, cigars, and every type of Corporate big money crook. Castro is a step up. As for the medical care, see how much care you get in this country without money.
    So what you are saying is that its ok to have a dictatorship if it appears that you might get health coverage?

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    Re: Chavez's cancer has 'entered the end stage'

    Quote Originally Posted by DaveFagan View Post
    The embargo that the USA has kept in force against Cuba for 60 years has caused most of Cuba's problems. Shortages of everything. The USA figured we'd cause the people great discomfort, pain, tragedy, impoverisation, starvation, etc. until they decided to get rid of Castro. I can only presume Castro outsmarted us. I remember Cuba before Castro. Gambling, mafia, rum, sugar, Rockefellers, banks, cigars, and every type of Corporate big money crook. Castro is a step up. As for the medical care, see how much care you get in this country without money.
    You give the US embargo too much credit, way too much credit. Cuba, untill the collapse of the Soviet Union, recieved aid from there. Also the embargo was not accompanied with a blockade (aside from during the Cuban missle crisis). After the collapse Cuba began to open up the county to foreign investment. Spanish companies were at the forefront of this and that is why there are so many hotels run by Spanish chains in Cuba. The lack of foreign investment was not caused by the US embargo but rather Cuban (read Fidel's) political and economic agenda. He only modified these when he had no choice. China is starting to make a big push into Cuba these days, largely due to oil reserves there. Spain is receding again largely due to Spanish economic difficulties.

    As to medical care:
    If you are poor and no insurance in the USA or just an average Cuban (ie poor) you get into an accident you go to hospital they WILL take care of you. Only difference is in the USA the poor guy will have accesss to medical equipment(xrays etc) drugs et all that the Cuban may not have access to. Afterwards the American will get a bill that he won't pay because he's poor. In this scenario I'd rather be American. Same situation for the people but you have cancer. Lets face it either way you are screwed! in the USA you can't afford the treatment in Cuba you just can't get it.

    Now go to middle class american without insurance vs average Cuban. same situation for the accident, though this time the American will pay for treatment, though it could cause financial hardship. Now go to cancer. American will experience severe economic hardship/possible bankruptcy. But they may come out of it alive, or treatment fails or they run out of $$ for treatment. The average Cuban is just screwed!

    Average American with insurance vs Cuabn party elite. either way you are good unless as an american you get your insurance taken away.

    Rich American/top level politican vs Cuban party elite pretty much no difference.

    Average Cuban vs Canadian. No contest Canadian is better off.
    Cuban party elite vs average Canadian. Probably better off as the Cuban elite.
    Problem is there aren't that many Cuban elites.

    So I will state once again that Cuba does not have the best medical care in the western hemisphere. What they have is lots of doctors without proper equipment/supplies. Many of whom leave medicine after their 3 years are up (university is free in Cuba, if you study medicine you are obliged to be a doctor for 3 years afterwards then can do somethign else if you want/can find something). It is a typical example of centralized planning, they want great health care for their people so they train lots of doctors, only they don't have the economy to support their health care plans, lack of equipment/medecine etc. Result is you get people claiming Cuba has best medical care in western hemisphere based on number of doctors they have but the truth is that the medical care sucks unless you are a rich foreigner or party elite.

    I would also like to know why you have so much respect for Fidel?
    Last edited by Quag; 06-09-12 at 09:54 AM.
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    Re: Chavez's cancer has 'entered the end stage'

    Is this a response to me?
    Or did you just decide to give up?

    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFromAll View Post
    As I said before people use Chavez as an shining example of Democratic socialism.
    Yea whats your point?

    They will even try to sugar coat it and say that its just like Europe,
    Dear god no...
    This statement is almost hysterical.

    mainly they will mean the Netherlands.
    No again. I have never heard anyone say this.

    And the purpose is to convince us that Democratic Socialism is the cure all government model that we need in America and the entire planet viva! all kinds of **** occupy the world and all of that in your face I dont care what you think BS.
    Oh god here comes the incoherent soapbox babbling.


    The first problem with Chavez and his Bolivarian Revolution is that he is promoting Participatory democracy.
    He is.

    Participatory democracy is easily corrupted and results in the majority dictating to the minority.
    Of course it is?
    Who woulda thought giving people power to decide on issues that affect their communities, villages, and cities, would be a bad thing.

    Participatory democracy causes fragmentation of the population since if you do not agree with the majority you have no recourse but to join or start a new faction in a attempt to have your voice heard.
    Ummm political parties have done this a long time ago in a all societies.


    The occupy movement show cased just how this works and the results. The occupy movement splintered into factions and now you mostly just hear from the more radical factions in the occupy movement.
    Uhhh no not at all.

    Please tell me how Participatory Democracy is not working out for Venezuela? And not some analysis on your opinions of Participatory Democar

    The second problem with Chavez and his Bolivarian Revolution is that his political party The United Socialist Party of Venezuela is self described as the "political vanguard of the revolutionary process".
    Ahhh they used Marxist terminology!!!!

    They used that scary word "Vanguard"!

    This should set of alarms at the very least since this is not a Democratic socialism concept at all. Instead it is a Communist concept (notice the big C). Vanguardism is nothing more than a political party trying to dictate to the population what single ideology that the country can have.
    Ues the USPV is doing a real job dictating that, you know with democratic elections and the Coalition for Democratic Unity controls 47% (64 seats) of the National Assembly. I guess they are doing a real good job "dictating" society...

    Also Vanguardism promotes only one single political party as the only choice.
    Except the USPV is pretty much a coalition type party with other left wing parties and maintains close contacts with other left wing parties. (This is quite the conspiracy your tracking down, almost in a Glenn Beck type matter, with you find some keywords(Vanguard) and you go on from there).
    Plus with elections and other parties in the National Assembly this pretty much makes this whole "vanguard" **** complete bull****

    And if you look at Chavez's progress it is quit obvious that his plan is for there to be no opposition political parties in Venezuela.
    Yea... Spreading democracy to the people, allowing free and fair elections... Really doing all this you laid out...

    Got anymore bs?


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    Re: Chavez's cancer has 'entered the end stage'

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemSocialist View Post
    Is this a response to me?
    Or did you just decide to give up?


    Yea whats your point?


    Dear god no...
    This statement is almost hysterical.


    No again. I have never heard anyone say this.


    Oh god here comes the incoherent soapbox babbling.



    He is.


    Of course it is?
    Who woulda thought giving people power to decide on issues that affect their communities, villages, and cities, would be a bad thing.


    Ummm political parties have done this a long time ago in a all societies.



    Uhhh no not at all.

    Please tell me how Participatory Democracy is not working out for Venezuela? And not some analysis on your opinions of Participatory Democar


    Ahhh they used Marxist terminology!!!!

    They used that scary word "Vanguard"!


    Ues the USPV is doing a real job dictating that, you know with democratic elections and the Coalition for Democratic Unity controls 47% (64 seats) of the National Assembly. I guess they are doing a real good job "dictating" society...


    Except the USPV is pretty much a coalition type party with other left wing parties and maintains close contacts with other left wing parties. (This is quite the conspiracy your tracking down, almost in a Glenn Beck type matter, with you find some keywords(Vanguard) and you go on from there).
    Plus with elections and other parties in the National Assembly this pretty much makes this whole "vanguard" **** complete bull****


    Yea... Spreading democracy to the people, allowing free and fair elections... Really doing all this you laid out...

    Got anymore bs?
    You are right, I did give up trying to debate with you. It is because I observed that you are an kool-aid addict. No matter what I show you, you will refuse to accept any of it. Statements like: Dear god no...
    This statement is almost hysterical. ....... Ahhh they used Marxist terminology!!!! They used that scary word "Vanguard"! ....... (This is quite the conspiracy your tracking down, almost in a Glenn Beck type matter, with you find some keywords(Vanguard) and you go on from there)...... **** complete bull****.........Got anymore bs?
    Shows that you are not here for honest debate. Obviously your tactic is to piss me off so that I either say something stupid or disappear and quit pointing out the obvious signs that Hugo Chavez is not a champion of freedom. Which the truth is that not once have you mentioned freedom, you just espouse that the elections seem free to you and that the people are getting stuff. Freedom never fits into the socialist equation. In fact large portions of the peoples freedom are always sacrificed for the so called greater good of society. In reality Hugo Chavez is just a puppet of Cuba. Sure he has his own ambitions but without Cuba he would not still be president of Venezuela. Plus Chavez can live only so long so him as a threat is really minimal at best. The real danger lies in the possibility of civil war in Venezuela. Most likely Cuba would protect its assets.

    Have you ever heard this slogan? "No Army is Revolutionary" Hugo Chavez is putting large amounts of money into Venezuela's armed forces. Arms from Russia and so on, and the excuse is that the US might invade. Show me anywhere that shows that we want to invade Venezuela. Sure we have interest in toppling Chavez but no where have we even gave a sign of wanting to occupy Venezuela. Yet Hugo Chavez will go on for hours telling his country about the US wants to take Venezuela. Lol you speak of conspiracy theories while Chavez keeps asserting his own conspiracy theories. Some are just funny some are just as crazy as Castros or like that nut in Iran.

    This is where the Marxist analysis comes in. In the rush to support an emerging
    "revolutionary" situation in South America, many radicals have completely
    forgotten that capitalism is not just some form of government, but a mode of
    production that is not isolated in one nation, class, or done away with simply
    by having the workers run "their" own factories. Chávez very skillfully keeps
    the attention on policy differences with the US government so as to throw up a
    smokescreen with which to hide the fact that he is actually marching right in
    step with neo-liberal globalization's grand scheme for the region.
    What possible use is it to go on and on about how unjust the war in Iraq is, for
    instance, when Halliburton remains the chief services contractor for PDVSA?
    How enormously distracting is it for Chávez to play verbal war games with
    Condoleezza Rice while welcoming Chevron - the murderous company she
    once directed - into the country with open arms, even calling them "great
    friends of the revolutionary process"?
    On the one hand, Venezuela's oil nationalization left much of the industry's
    infrastructure undeveloped, and building relationships with the transnationals
    is the only way to overcome this without immediately bankrupting the country.
    Chávez certainly can't hope to go from relying solely on oil and importing up
    to 80% of Venezuela's food, to a completely "sovereign" and self-sufficient
    nation overnight... but on the other hand there is absolutely nothing to suggest
    that he is doing anything other than trying to deepen this dependency. Under
    the banner of socialism and with slogans of "development", Chávez has presided over the biggest handover of national resources in Venezuela's history.
    And how else could they possibly hope to do it? In late 2003 Bolivia nearly
    went through a revolution just at the suggestion of privatization. Chávez, on
    the other hand, is such a "revolutionary" that he can sign over the rights to the
    massive offshore Deltana Platform - which will create a "dead zone" in the
    ocean and have access to more gas reserves than ALL of Bolivia combined -
    and nobody will even realize that it just happened!
    For Chávez, anything that brings in money from the country's energy reserves
    (combined, the largest in the world) is positive. His single driving goal is to
    convert Venezuela into the number one energy producing country on earth -
    and for this to happen he relies not only on the transnationals, but the continuity of the capitalist system that consumes that energy. Despite scattered references to "the environment", he has absolutely no intention of developing or
    providing the alternative energy solutions necessary to reduce economic dependency on the oil market. In fact, the only type of energy Chávez seems to
    be interested in that doesn't come from gas, petrol, or coal... is nuclear.


    [...]Of all the people we met around Plaza Bolívar and the streets of Western Caracas, by far the most interesting was a fellow Tupamaro, probably in his thirties,
    who pulled me aside and explained, "What we need to do is line up all those
    politicians in the National Assembly and have them machine-gunned." Entirely
    in agreement - but still wanting to play devil's advocate - I asked, "What about
    [Gustavo] Cisneros?" By his reply I knew he hadn't been joking around, "You
    need to forget about Cisneros, that guy has already escaped; all those people
    are long gone, and they took the money with them. The ones you need to pay
    attention to, the people who are robbing us right now - are the same ones who
    are in this 'revolutionary' government."
    To fully understand the dramatic nature of his viewpoint, one has to realize that
    in last year's elections, officialist parties took total control of the National Assembly, meaning that this particular Tupamaro was proposing the assassination
    of some of the country's most "revolutionary" and committed Chavistas.
    http://www.redanarchist.org/propagan...nvenezuela.pdf


    Even the extreme Left recognize that Chavez is not all that he claims. In fact you sound more like an hack than anything else. All that you seem to be able to do is ad hominem little interludes while trying to evade the fact that Hugo Chavez is not the good guy. It seems that the Extreme Left is just using him and hoping that he will be a good little doggy and as soon as he is no longer useful for the movement off with his head. I wonder how they will like Adan Chavez?
    Last edited by FreedomFromAll; 06-09-12 at 05:17 PM.

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    Re: Chavez's cancer has 'entered the end stage'

    Quote Originally Posted by lpast View Post
    This reporter has been told that Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez has metastatic rhabdomyosarcoma, an aggressive cancer that has "entered the end stage". The information and the quote come from a highly respected source close to Chavez and who is in a position to know his medical condition and history. This source says the prognosis is dire and that Chavez is now not expected to live "more than a couple of months at most." Chavez is running for re-elec tion in Venezuela but several sources--including the one who revealed the exact kind of cancer-- have told me that they believe it is doubtful the dictator will live to see the results.


    Report: Chavez's cancer has 'entered the end stage' - Yahoo! News

    I'll not get all maudlin about this story. He was a dictator and it's way past time he gave up the job.

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