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Thread: Chavez's cancer has 'entered the end stage'

  1. #141
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    Re: Chavez's cancer has 'entered the end stage'

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemSocialist View Post
    Actually the 2004 referendum was actually stated to be fair. The OAS and the Carter Center who were the 2 main groups monitoring the elections at the time reported them to be free and fair.

    "
    After the Electoral Counsel stated Chavez won decisively, his opponents were quick to claim fraud, citing no evidence other than the internalized belief that it was impossible for Chávez to have such support. Such claims kept the recall from simmering into the second day, though they were eventually dismissed as the electoral observers, including Jimmy Carter and OAS leader Cesar Gaveria deemed the results to be fair. The fervently anti-Chávez bloggster and former NY Times reporter Francisco Toro put it as such on the day after the results.

    But it looks very much to me like the government won fair and square. If it didn't, it'll come out in the paper-trail audit, which CNE's Jorge Rodriguez has already agreed to.
    The audit option, which would manually recount the paper ballots that each individual put into the ballot box, thus dismissing any myth of computer fraud, was rejected the next day by the same opposition leaders who cried so hard to make sure they get one."
    The Implications and Explanation of Venezuela's Recall Election. | the narcosphere
    The Repeatedly Re-Elected Autocrat
    The Carter Center clearly has a conflict of interest they were, in part, architects and quasi administrators for the Venezuelan government beginning in 1998. For the Carter Center to find impropriety in the voting would be admitting they were not effective in instilling democracy in that country. They should have stepped aside, but, they did not and their findings will be viewed through the lens of a party in interest in declaring the recall was proper. Indeed, there were many pre-recall voting problems and improper practices that the carter center knew about and acknowledged the result of which effected the vote itself.

    The Carter Center:"since 1998, the Center has assisted Venezuelans in developing sound democratic practices. The Carter center appears to have had a conflict of interest. According to Jennifer L. McCoy who led the Carter Center delegation, “the government and the opposition had called on international actors to mediate their conflict, and the Tripartite International Working Group made up of the Carter Center, OAS, and UNDP was formed in July 2002. After an agreement was reached in May 2003, facilitated primarily by the OAS secretary general with support from the Carter Center, the government and opposition invited the OAS and Carter Center to monitor the implementation of that agreement —namely the entire recall referendum process.”"~ Jennifer L. McCoy, Director, Americas Program, The Carter Center

    The voting machines: "As Chavez was facing a recall, Venezuela's National Electoral Council, or CNE, announced plans to replace the nation's 6-year-old U.S.-made optical-scan voting machines. The five-member council, which is dominated by Chavez supporters, awarded the $91-million contract to Smartmatic, maker of the voting machine hardware, and Bizta, maker of the software that programmed the ballots and tabulated the votes. The companies are run jointly by two 30-year-old Venezuelan engineers, whose machines had never been used in an election.

    As it turned out, the Venezuelan government owned 28 percent, or 3 million shares, of Bizta through investments in a venture capital fund. A top official from Venezuela's science ministry, who helped Chavez get elected in 1998, was also a member of Bizta's board of directors.

    Two American election observers, Curtis Reed and Steve Henley, a Democratic candidate running for supervisor of elections in Hillsborough County, Florida, were invited to Venezuela by the opposition parties and sent a letter to Capitol Hill describing what they saw. Months before the election, they said, the government granted citizenship and voting rights to hundreds of thousands of foreigners while withdrawing voting rights from other citizens living abroad. The CNE also reassigned opposition voters to polling places hours away from their homes to discourage them from voting and replaced thousands of accredited poll workers who signed the recall petition with poll workers who supported Chavez. "

    "Jennifer McCoy, who led the Carter Center delegation, said the Center documented the pre-election problems but that during the election they saw very little intimidation. "It was an amazingly calm day for having so many people standing in line for hours and hours," she said. "The fact that there was not more violence was absolutely amazing."

    http://www.tfd.org.tw/docs/dj0201/Je...L.%20McCoy.pdf
    International Peacekeeping and Human Rights Programs - Carter Center Activities by Country
    E-Vote Rigging in Venezuela?

    As far as your other sources: A blogger who is admittedly pro Chavez and a self proclaimed clearing house...How about some peer reviewed studies.



    Ehhh whats the problem here?
    Civil rights violations, intimidation practices and unlawful imprisonment to name a few issues.

  2. #142
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    Re: Chavez's cancer has 'entered the end stage'

    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFromAll View Post
    So on one hand you consider that Carter and OAS are good source of honest opinion but you turn around and assert that they are puppets of out Government? And id you miss the part where Chávez is only allowing biased observers?
    Where have i ever claimed that the OAS and the Carter Center are "puppets"? I have claimed other various organizations and especially the Media in this country are pretty much puppets when it comes to Latin American policy.

    Interesting and what would you call it if the military was deployed in the US to stop a crime wave? And what if we named this detail the People's Guard? Would you call this a police state?
    Dont know what this has to do with anything from the above quoted subject..
    But ok...
    Caracas is one of the most violent cities in Latin America. The police are extremely corrupt. The people of Caracas and Venezuela have been calling for something to be done about crime. And this is what the current gov came up with. Creating a new unit to stop crime. And it has shown results. Crime is down 53%.

    Watch this video. BTW "bichos" means “animals” which is what the so called People's Guard is calling the prisoners. I am pretty sure that mortar fire is not how you are supposed to stop a prison riot. I wonder if this is what Chavez meant by he helped stop the riot?
    So it is Chavez's fault that guards abuse their power?
    And mortar fire? More like tear gas..

    But we are not talking about the US now are we?
    Just using it as an example.
    Why not answer the question? It seems like you are saying, "Well the world is the US's playground".


    Yea but since it is illegal to own guns in Venezuela now the military have much more power.
    Yes cuz the only way to fight a military is by legally purchasing guns right?
    Its like the people were going to rise up in Venezuela any day now right?

    By the way having one of the most violent crime driven country in Latin America this might not be a bad idea.


    LMAO you are so busy splitting hairs that you forgot what the point was of the quote.
    Uhh no not at all.. I know what we are talking about.
    But you didnt explain. What is the problem here?




    Ah you missed the point of this quote Divisive rhetoric and intimidating tactics from Chavistas, Such tactics show that Chavez is not an angel and should be watched..
    Divisive rhetoric? Are you kidding me? Look at our government. Look at politics historically. OF COURSE YOU ARE GOING TO BE DIVISIVE!
    And no one is an angel.


    If you have nothing to hide why turn away the OAS when they confirmed the elections in the past?

    No one knows.



    Agree with what? Agree that Chavez is not open to the public? How exactly would this secrecy fit in with a country ran by the people?

    That the elections were fair and free.... That is what the report concluded. And that is what i have been stating for a very long time on here, and this report agrees with me.


    The best that you could find is a biased group?
    Bias how? Because their research is about democracy, human rights, corruption, social justice, equal rights, in Latin America?



    Here is a interesting letter: "Dear President Chávez,

    I join thousands of people around the world in expressing my profound concern about the deterioration of human rights in Venezuela—especially civil and political rights.

    I wish to register my distress regarding the political prisoners held by your government. Otto Gebauer, Raúl Díaz Peńa, Humberto Quintero, Iván Simonovis, Lázaro Forero, Henry Vivas, and others have been imprisoned despite clear violations of due process, the rule of law, the Venezuelan constitution, and various international treaties to which Venezuela is signatory.

    Mr. President, I respectfully request that you immediately release every Venezuelan political prisoner. Your continued disregard for their fundamental rights undermines not only your democratic credentials but also the Venezuelan state’s commitment to respect human rights.

    I am sending copies of this letter to numerous international organizations and individuals who defend human rights, to foreign governments, and to your colleagues in the Venezuelan government. "

    Tell Chávez: Demand Human Rights of Venezuela's Political Prisoners' Be Respected - Tell Chávez Now
    Cool. I can write a letter to and say USA is opressing me..


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    Re: Chavez's cancer has 'entered the end stage'

    Chavez makes first media appearance in 6 weeks, but as already mentioned, the prognosis is dire and Chavez is now not expected to live 'more than a couple of months at most'.

    June 03, 2012

    Read more: Venezuela's Chavez makes first media appearance in 6 weeks | Fox News Latino

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    Re: Chavez's cancer has 'entered the end stage'

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemSocialist View Post
    Where have i ever claimed that the OAS and the Carter Center are "puppets"? I have claimed other various organizations and especially the Media in this country are pretty much puppets when it comes to Latin American policy.
    you implied it with this sentence: "Why would they allow a country back into their country after the US supported a coup against Chavez?" You also confirmed that OAS is a NGO not the Government. Meaning that you asserted that OAS is an puupet of the US Government. Come on man pay attention.


    Dont know what this has to do with anything from the above quoted subject..
    But ok...
    Caracas is one of the most violent cities in Latin America. The police are extremely corrupt. The people of Caracas and Venezuela have been calling for something to be done about crime. And this is what the current gov came up with. Creating a new unit to stop crime. And it has shown results. Crime is down 53%.
    The police are indeed extremely corrupt and who do the police answer too and who are the police working with? Ill answer that for you; Chavez and the People Guard. Dont believe me go look it up.


    So it is Chavez's fault that guards abuse their power?
    And mortar fire? More like tear gas..
    Yes it is Chavez's fault he is the one that everything in the country falls on. Ok so they are shooting tear gas at animals that makes it not as bad right? 70 prisoners died that night from that automatic gun fire that is heard in that video while the Peoples Guard not guards laughed. Looks more like war than a prison riot.


    Just using it as an example.
    Why not answer the question? It seems like you are saying, "Well the world is the US's playground".
    No, you said that I did not. Nor did I imply it.



    Yes cuz the only way to fight a military is by legally purchasing guns right?
    Its like the people were going to rise up in Venezuela any day now right?

    By the way having one of the most violent crime driven country in Latin America this might not be a bad idea.
    Chavez has been president since 1998 and needed the military to curb violent crime? He must really such at his job of fighting corruption.


    Uhh no not at all.. I know what we are talking about.
    But you didnt explain. What is the problem here?
    The problem is that you are not being honest.





    Divisive rhetoric? Are you kidding me? Look at our government. Look at politics historically. OF COURSE YOU ARE GOING TO BE DIVISIVE!
    And no one is an angel.
    Quit trying to make this about the US, the subject is not a comparison it is about Chavez. The statement that I quoted was pointing out that while the elections appeared legit that the Chavistas were engaging in anti-democratic behavior. Which means that democracy is not sacred to Chavez. True no one is an angel but then I already knew that Chavez is no angel.



    No one knows.
    ok




    That the elections were fair and free.... That is what the report concluded. And that is what i have been stating for a very long time on here, and this report agrees with me.
    Free legally but not socially.


    Bias how? Because their research is about democracy, human rights, corruption, social justice, equal rights, in Latin America?
    It is well known their bias dont try to pretend that everyone doesnt know.





    Cool. I can write a letter to and say USA is opressing me..
    True you could do whatever you please, but one must wonder why you ignored the point of the letter.

  5. #145
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    Re: Chavez's cancer has 'entered the end stage'

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiggen View Post
    To the people who support the likes of Chavez and Castro and Mugabe and the tin pot in Iran, freedom of the press and freedom of political expression aren't nearly as important as good old out and out anti-americanism and anti-westernism. It just doesn't matter to them, as long as the despot is saying the right things about the U.S.
    How does the idealist rant go again?...something like: Well if the US would just mind its own business, we wouldn't have these problems.
    Caitlyn Strong...

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    Re: Chavez's cancer has 'entered the end stage'

    Quote Originally Posted by Medusa View Post
    He is asshole because he is marxist ,very nice logic..
    at least he doesnt devote himself to money.
    Um, those that force marxism and communism and socialism on others, just about always control the wealth and live a life of extreme extravagance.
    "nah i think the way cons want to turn this into a political issue is funny though" - Philly Boss

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    Re: Chavez's cancer has 'entered the end stage'

    I know that many occupiers support Hugo Chavez. These same occupiers boast about photos of mass protests as proof of what the people want. Here is a photo from an Anti-Chavez rally in support of recalling Chavez.
    None of the occupy protest have shown this type of support on the streets.

    Last edited by FreedomFromAll; 06-05-12 at 08:21 PM.

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    Re: Chavez's cancer has 'entered the end stage'

    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFromAll View Post
    you implied it with this sentence: "Why would they allow a country back into their country after the US supported a coup against Chavez?" You also confirmed that OAS is a NGO not the Government. Meaning that you asserted that OAS is an puupet of the US Government.
    Sure i confirmed that the OAS is not a NGO that does not mean it leads to that the OAS is a puppet of the US Gov; That is huge strawman argument right there. Im saying why would Venezuela a member of the OAS allow the US a member of the OAS after being called a "tyrannical dictator, and non democratic" and why would they allow US gov supervisors into their country after they supported a coup against them?

    Come on man pay attention.
    I am



    The police are indeed extremely corrupt
    Yes they are

    and who do the police answer too and who are the police working with? Ill answer that for you; Chavez and the People Guard. Dont believe me go look it up.
    Do we need to learn how a government Bureaucracy works? Its not like Chavez can say "no no no dont be assholes to prisoners right now. Now dont shoot those tear gas at them". Its not like he is on a magical cloud looking down on all Venezuela. I know you wanna think that, but cmon lets be mature, educated adults here and try to be realistic.
    This is like blaming Obama for the crime rate in Baltimore or DC...



    Yes it is Chavez's fault he is the one that everything in the country falls on.
    Right.....

    Ok so they are shooting tear gas at animals that makes it not as bad right? 70 prisoners died that night from that automatic gun fire that is heard in that video while the Peoples Guard not guards laughed. Looks more like war than a prison riot.
    You should read about the conditions of Venezuelan prisons. Prisons are ran by the prisoners themselves while the guards simply keep the perimeter secure.
    "were originally designed to house 750 prisoners, one fifth of the actual 3,500 they were holding at the time riots began on Thursday. In late April of this year, prisoners at El Rodeo also took 22 officials hostage ".. Hostage taking=very serious situation. Especially when, "
    Heavy arms like AK-47 assault rifles are known to be circulating among El Rodeo prisoners...thousands of troops attempted to confiscate weapons, but that battle led instead to a stalemate between them and a smaller band of prisoners. Many inmates have since been evacuated from El Rodeo for their safety."
    And this is all not Chavez's fault it began way before him. "Venezuelan prison violence predates Chávez. Shortly before he took office in 1999, in fact, international criticism forced authorities to tear down Caracas' Retén de Catia, which was one of the most squalid and barbaric prisons in the western hemisphere. In 1994, the Sabaneta prison in Maracaibo saw 130 inmates burned or hacked to death with machetes. "
    All in all prison violence has been decreasing sennce Chavez has taken power.

    Venezuela's Prison Riot: Why Is Hugo Chávez Silent? - TIME
    Behind the Venezuelan Prison Riots: the State of Venezuela

    And do you have a source on this 70 people died in one night claim?


    No, you said that I did not. Nor did I imply it.
    Just saying its what it makes you seem like...
    And still why not answer the question?




    Chavez has been president since 1998 and needed the military to curb violent crime? He must really such at his job of fighting corruption.
    Hmm replacing the corrupt police and adding military and creating a new police force to curb crime is "corrupt"?
    Really... People use the military to cut crime all the time.......I mean even the great ol USA brings in the national guard throughout history.


    The problem is that you are not being honest.
    '
    Please explain how im not "being honest"?






    Quit trying to make this about the US, the subject is not a comparison it is about Chavez. The statement that I quoted was pointing out that while the elections appeared legit that the Chavistas were engaging in anti-democratic behavior. Which means that democracy is not sacred to Chavez. True no one is an angel but then I already knew that Chavez is no angel.
    What anti democratic behavior. THEY ADMITTED THE ELECTIONS WERE FREE AND FAIR. Meaning you have the freedom to vote for whoever, you are not coerced to vote for someone, each candidate had a fair chance, and they were internationally monitored.



    Free legally but not socially.
    Explain what that means? IF they are not free socially then they are infact breaking the law correct?



    It is well known their bias dont try to pretend that everyone doesnt know.
    What are they bias about? Is it because you say so or someone says so?






    True you could do whatever you please, but one must wonder why you ignored the point of the letter.
    What that someone is not happy?


  9. #149
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    Re: Chavez's cancer has 'entered the end stage'

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemSocialist View Post
    Sure i confirmed that the OAS is not a NGO that does not mean it leads to that the OAS is a puppet of the US Gov; That is huge strawman argument right there. Im saying why would Venezuela a member of the OAS allow the US a member of the OAS after being called a "tyrannical dictator, and non democratic" and why would they allow US gov supervisors into their country after they supported a coup against them?


    I am




    Yes they are


    Do we need to learn how a government Bureaucracy works? Its not like Chavez can say "no no no dont be assholes to prisoners right now. Now dont shoot those tear gas at them". Its not like he is on a magical cloud looking down on all Venezuela. I know you wanna think that, but cmon lets be mature, educated adults here and try to be realistic.
    This is like blaming Obama for the crime rate in Baltimore or DC...




    Right.....


    You should read about the conditions of Venezuelan prisons. Prisons are ran by the prisoners themselves while the guards simply keep the perimeter secure.
    "were originally designed to house 750 prisoners, one fifth of the actual 3,500 they were holding at the time riots began on Thursday. In late April of this year, prisoners at El Rodeo also took 22 officials hostage ".. Hostage taking=very serious situation. Especially when, "
    Heavy arms like AK-47 assault rifles are known to be circulating among El Rodeo prisoners...thousands of troops attempted to confiscate weapons, but that battle led instead to a stalemate between them and a smaller band of prisoners. Many inmates have since been evacuated from El Rodeo for their safety."
    And this is all not Chavez's fault it began way before him. "Venezuelan prison violence predates Chávez. Shortly before he took office in 1999, in fact, international criticism forced authorities to tear down Caracas' Retén de Catia, which was one of the most squalid and barbaric prisons in the western hemisphere. In 1994, the Sabaneta prison in Maracaibo saw 130 inmates burned or hacked to death with machetes. "
    All in all prison violence has been decreasing sennce Chavez has taken power.

    Venezuela's Prison Riot: Why Is Hugo Chávez Silent? - TIME
    Behind the Venezuelan Prison Riots: the State of Venezuela

    And do you have a source on this 70 people died in one night claim?



    Just saying its what it makes you seem like...
    And still why not answer the question?





    Hmm replacing the corrupt police and adding military and creating a new police force to curb crime is "corrupt"?
    Really... People use the military to cut crime all the time.......I mean even the great ol USA brings in the national guard throughout history.


    '
    Please explain how im not "being honest"?







    What anti democratic behavior. THEY ADMITTED THE ELECTIONS WERE FREE AND FAIR. Meaning you have the freedom to vote for whoever, you are not coerced to vote for someone, each candidate had a fair chance, and they were internationally monitored.




    Explain what that means? IF they are not free socially then they are infact breaking the law correct?




    What are they bias about? Is it because you say so or someone says so?







    What that someone is not happy?

    Hugo Chavez has been president since 1998, this we all know. We are all also aware that it is now the year 2012. less than a Month ago there was another prison riot. The cause was basically the same as the one that was in that video. Venezuela is raking billions in oil money why cant they pull every citizen out of poverty? Why must prisons be over populated to an extreme where it is inhumane to treat people in such a foul way? Why is that Chavez can travel to Cuba for cancer treatment while his people rot in prisons and on the streets?


    Seriously how come there is some much corruption in Venezuela STILL? Hugo Chavez even ruled by decree and was unable to stop his country from having poverty and run away corruption? What exactly has Chavez achieved with his brand of Socialism in the 14 years that he has ruled?

  10. #150
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    Re: Chavez's cancer has 'entered the end stage'

    Another one bites the dust.

    Now, who's the next troublesome politician to die?

    .....Castro?
    "We have more responsibility than power, I think. The newspaper can create great controversies, stir up arguments within the community or discussion, can throw light on injustices....just as it can do the opposite. It can hide things and be a great power for evil." -- Rupert Murdoch, 1968

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