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Voter Fraud? 20,000 Felons Signed Wisconsin Recall Petition

OpportunityCost said:
Specifically, falsify any information. As a disclaimer on petitions where the state requires them to be voters it reads: by signing the following you are asserting that you are an eligible voter for the State of Wisconsin. Signing that statement, which is a legal document (a recall petition) you are falsifying it, at least as far your individual signature goes.

States generally look the other way in cases like this because its hard to track down and prove, let alone prosecute---but it IS illegal. Im not arguing as to any other thing. Apparently some of you dont understand what falsifying means, I dont mean false signatures, I mean that voters are ineligible and holding that they are such is an illegal act on an official document as outlined by statute.

Instead of putting up "no its not" "thats rediculous" why dont you illustrate to me how I am wrong---because none of you have made a shred of an attempt to do so.
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You are wrong, that statute is meant for the signature gatherer, not the individual signers. On each page of the petitions, the gatherer must certify that he/she has followed the statute S.12.13(3)(a).

The signature of gatherer is saying that he/she agrees with the premise of the petition, not that he/she can legally vote.
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OpportunityCost said:
Specifically, falsify any information. As a disclaimer on petitions where the state requires them to be voters it reads: by signing the following you are asserting that you are an eligible voter for the State of Wisconsin. Signing that statement, which is a legal document (a recall petition) you are falsifying it, at least as far your individual signature goes.
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That was very dishonest. That disclaimer only applies to the certifier of the petition, and you already know this. It's been pointed out to you several times

Why do you persist with such dishonest claims?
 
sangha said:
So Grim has backed from "the democrats were engaged in fraud" to "the petition singers were engaged in fraud"

Will Grim ever acknowledge his mistake and make a retraction?

I don't think so
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I don't think so either.
 
sangha said:
That was very dishonest. That disclaimer only applies to the certifier of the petition, and you already know this. It's been pointed out to you several times

Why do you persist with such dishonest claims?
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It isn't a dishonest claim... You are the one who is being dishonest.

That means the person collecting signatures had to at least ask the person signing if they were eligable to vote in the state of Wisconsin... If they didn't ask before allowing people to sign, or did ask and knowingly allowed people to sign who weren't eligable, they were in violation Wisconsin state statute s.12.13.(3)(c) for election fraud, as plainly stated on the petition... If they did ask, and the person signing said they were eligible, then that person has violated election fraud statutes.

Look it up yourself.

Wisconsin Legislature: 12.13(3)(a)
 
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Grim17 said:
It isn't a dishonest claim... You are the one who is being dishonest.

That means the person collecting signatures had to at least ask the person signing if they were eligable to vote in the state of Wisconsin... If they didn't ask before allowing people to sign, or did ask and knowingly allowed people to sign who weren't eligable, they were in violation Wisconsin state statute s.12.13.(3)(c) for election fraud, as plainly stated on the petition... If they did ask, and the person signing said they were eligible, then that person has violated election fraud statutes.

Look it up yourself.

Wisconsin Legislature: 12.13(3)(a)
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When people post dishonestly, they often find themselves having to post more fictions in order to defend the original fiction.

The law doesn't require them to ask the signers anything, and you have no evidence that they didn't ask

And repeating the dishonest claim that it's a crime for them to sign the petition has already been exposed as a fiction
 
sangha said:
Please post the statute that says it's a crime to sign a petition you're not qualified to sign
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pay attention

Ive posted it at least twice now. You guys seem to think Im basing this on my opinion, Im quoting the exact statute and you genuises keep going no without even reading my posts.

Look at the statute yourself, its been posted to this thread.
The ignorance is just appalling.
 
OpportunityCost said:
pay attention

Ive posted it at least twice now. You guys seem to think Im basing this on my opinion, Im quoting the exact statute and you genuises keep going no without even reading my posts.

Look at the statute yourself, its been posted to this thread.
The ignorance is just appalling.
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No, you posted where it says it's illegal for the CERTIFIER (not the signer) to sign the certification knowing that it's false.

Post #151 includes an image of the petition form, and it clearly states that the statute you cited applied ONLY to the certifier, not the signers

Stop posting dishonest claims
 
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sangha said:
When people post dishonestly, they often find themselves having to post more fictions in order to defend the original fiction.

The law doesn't require them to ask the signers anything, and you have no evidence that they didn't ask

And repeating the dishonest claim that it's a crime for them to sign the petition has already been exposed as a fiction
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It's a never ending chain of dishonesty with you. Here's the part of the petition Pete snipped off.

Image3.jpg

Remember... When you have to lie to prop up your beliefs, then you have beliefs that aren't worth propping up.
 
sangha said:
No, you posted where it says it's illegal for the CERTIFIER (not the signer) to sign the certification knowing that it's false.

Post #151 includes an image of the petition form, and it clearly states that the statute you cited applied ONLY to the certifier, not the signers

Stop posting dishonest claims
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Read the damned law...

Wisconsin Legislature: 12.13(3)(a)

This is state law, not just laws governing election workers or petition gatherers.
 
Grim17 said:
It's a never ending chain of dishonesty with you. Here's the part of the petition Pete snipped off.

View attachment 67128440

Remember... When you have to lie to prop up your beliefs, then you have beliefs that aren't worth propping up.
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Thanks for proving that the law that was cited applies only to the CERTIFIER and not the signers of the petition
 
Grim17 said:
Read the damned law...

Wisconsin Legislature: 12.13(3)(a)

This is state law, not just laws governing election workers or petition gatherers.
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(a) Falsify any information in respect to or fraudulently deface or destroy a certificate of nomination, nomination paper, declaration of candidacy or petition for an election, including a recall petition or petition for a referendum; or file or receive for filing a certificate of nomination, nomination paper, declaration of candidacy or any such petition, knowing any part is falsely made.
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What information the signer writes on the document is false? Is the signer warned on the document that he/she should not sign if he/she isn't a valid voter? No.
 
sangha said:
Thanks for proving that the law that was cited applies only to the CERTIFIER and not the signers of the petition
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Correct. The responsibility is on the signature gatherer, not on the individual signers.
 
sangha said:
It says that no one can falsify any info on the petition. The signers didn't falsify any info
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Is this game of deception by design, or are you really that clueless here?

The person gathering the signatures signs the agreement at bottom of the petition, which states that they "know that the signers are electors..." An "elector" is a person who is legally eligible to vote. If they did not ask signers about their eligibility, then the person gathering signatures has falsified information. If the person gathering signatures did inquire about a signers eligibility, and the signer lied and said they were eligible to vote, then the signer just committed fraud by signing the petition.

Are you really going to continue this game? All you're doing is making yourself look foolish.
 
Good ole Grim, always looking for the worst explanation.

The simple fact is that people who do this are usually low paid clerks. There is a reason twice as many signatures were collected as necessary, to account for these kinds of errors.
 
Grim17 said:
Is this game of deception by design, or are you really that clueless here?

The person gathering the signatures signs the agreement at bottom of the petition, which states that they "know that the signers are electors..." An "elector" is a person who is legally eligible to vote. If they did not ask signers about their eligibility, then the person gathering signatures has falsified information. If the person gathering signatures did inquire about a signers eligibility, and the signer lied and said they were eligible to vote, then the signer just committed fraud by signing the petition.

Are you really going to continue this game? All you're doing is making yourself look foolish.
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You have no evidence that the certifier did or did not ask, nor do you have any evidence that the certifier or the signers knowingly falsified any info
 
sangha said:
You have no evidence that the certifier did or did not ask, nor do you have any evidence that the certifier or the signers knowingly falsified any info
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Ignorance of breaking a law is not defense for doing so.
 
OpportunityCost said:
Ignorance of breaking a law is not defense for doing so.
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What information does the signers write on the petition that is false?

Edit: How does one know they no longer can vote after conviction??
 
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pbrauer said:
What information does the signers write on the petition that is false?

Edit: How does one know they no longer can vote after conviction??
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Answer: When the go to the polls on election day they are no longer in the list.
 
State reviews U.S. Rep. Thaddeus McCotter's petitions for criminal fraud | Detroit Free Press | freep.com

State reviews U.S. Rep. Thaddeus McCotter's petitions for criminal fraud

Photocopies of petitions, dates that were cut and pasted onto the petition forms and different-colored ink on identical petitions were just a few of the tactics used to try to fool state election officials into believing that U.S. Rep. Thaddeus McCotter had enough signatures to get on the Aug. 7 primary ballot.

"This wasn't anything that was an innocent mistake," Lansing political consultant Tom Shields said Tuesday. "It was purely an attempt to make up for a lack of signatures, which is politically criminal."

Or maybe just plain criminal. The state Attorney General's Office is investigating to determine whether any laws were broken.
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I'm sure that Grim will be quick to denounce the Republicans for engaging in criminal behavior
 
State reviews U.S. Rep. Thaddeus McCotter's petitions for criminal fraud | Detroit Free Press | freep.com

State reviews U.S. Rep. Thaddeus McCotter's petitions for criminal fraud

Photocopies of petitions, dates that were cut and pasted onto the petition forms and different-colored ink on identical petitions were just a few of the tactics used to try to fool state election officials into believing that U.S. Rep. Thaddeus McCotter had enough signatures to get on the Aug. 7 primary ballot.

"This wasn't anything that was an innocent mistake," Lansing political consultant Tom Shields said Tuesday. "It was purely an attempt to make up for a lack of signatures, which is politically criminal."

Or maybe just plain criminal. The state Attorney General's Office is investigating to determine whether any laws were broken.
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I'm sure that Grim will be quick to denounce the Republicans for engaging in criminal behavior
 
Across the top of each page of the recall is the following or similar:

To the Government Accountability Board: We the undersigned qualified electors of the 2nd State Senate District of Wisconsin petition for the recall of Senator Robert Cowles from office persuant to Article XIII, section 12 of the Wisconsin Constitution and s.9.10 of the Wisconsin statutes.
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http://gab.wi.gov/sites/default/files/Comm_to_Recall_Cowles_pgs_1-100.pdf

Thats from the 2nd district for Senator Cowles. All of the petitions read similarly. Electors in this document are voters, not canvassers. This is voter fraud of the sort just under casting a false ballot. If you are too stupid to know the law regarding false information you shouldn't sign the damn thing.
 
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