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Thread: NAACP backs gay marriage

  1. #201
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    Re: NAACP Backs Same-Sex Marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    The problem you have is the fact that science disputes you and science means it is something that can be recreated. I can get the knowledge to be able to verify decay ages, or evolution, or tree lifespans or some of the other things that show the age of the Earth is really old. You cannot do the same with the Bible.
    And I showed you that science isn't always right. Science changes all the time. What were thought to be facts are debunked regularly in the world of science. Meanwhile, the Bible has been the same thoughout. Documents have been found that show the modern day Bible accurately depicts what was originally written. Also, do a Google search on Bible geology. You will find lots of evidence that contradicts the status quo belief.
    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    One of the issues you seem unable to accept is that I believe that it is much more likely that those guys back in the day actually were either just writing their own experiences or what they thought they knew or they lied in an effort to control other people. I prefer logic, something I feel God gave to us to use, instead of believing men who had a clear and powerful reason to write and put out what they did, control of other people, for good or bad.
    Logic is my biggest evidence against the Bible. And not starting from the premise that the Bible is automatically the absolute word of God.
    I still don't understand how you can put your trust in one group of men you've never met while you can't put your trust into another group of men you've never met. What, scientists don't have a vested interest in their theories and discoveries being accepted as doctrine and common belief? The best part is what you are calling logic is in fact faith. You have faith in those scientists that they are telling the truth. There is no logic behind your belief in them. That is, unless you have some sort of degree or experience in geology.
    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    After you each life, yes, everyone is judged for how they lived that life.
    Soooo, how is my God so horrible but yours isn't? I am assuming that the reincarnation you believe in has human beings return as human beings again. So, if I am horrible in this life I receive punishment in the next life correct? So how am I able to break out of this downward spiral of continuously accruing punishment if the god that you believe in doesn't interfere with my life? Where else do I turn? At least my God bails you out once you realize you screwed up. He doesn't just continue to pile on the misery.
    “Mr. Speaker, I once again find myself compelled to vote against the annual budget resolution for a very simple reason: it makes government bigger.” ― Ron Paul
    Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of Liberty. – Thomas Jefferson

  2. #202
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    Re: NAACP Backs Same-Sex Marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Because knowledge is important. Without that knowledge, a person might evolved into a self righteous asshole who seeks to unfairly discrimnate against people like homosexuals, or feel superior enough to judge. The knowledge of what we've done grounds us in humility, to know that it is but by the grace of God that we are not elsewhere.

    As for scriputre to back that up, the best place to debunk that is at the library. Some very good books were written on that long ago that cast a lot of doubt on the scripture so oftened used. Many an interpretation is just plain wrong. But at worse, what the scripture really has to say on it is in doubt. I find it does no good to try and explain this to people who won't look, but if you have the desire to question, I suggest going to the library.
    Boo, sorry, but I'm not tracking what exactly the purpose of this post was. Maybe it's because I haven't slept a lot or something but I'm seriously just staring at the screen on this one.
    “Mr. Speaker, I once again find myself compelled to vote against the annual budget resolution for a very simple reason: it makes government bigger.” ― Ron Paul
    Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of Liberty. – Thomas Jefferson

  3. #203
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    Re: NAACP Backs Same-Sex Marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by MarineTpartier View Post
    And I showed you that science isn't always right. Science changes all the time. What were thought to be facts are debunked regularly in the world of science. Meanwhile, the Bible has been the same thoughout. Documents have been found that show the modern day Bible accurately depicts what was originally written. Also, do a Google search on Bible geology. You will find lots of evidence that contradicts the status quo belief.
    The beliefs in what the Bible says changes all the time. I don't know how you can say it doesn't. People used to believe the Bible condoned slavery and considered interracial marriage a sin. Some still believe both of these things, while others don't. There are thousands of denominations of Christianity for the pure fact that most people believe that the Bible means different things. I know what the Bible says. I have been reading it since I very young. It contradicts itself and science, unless you absolutely do not take it at face value.

    Quote Originally Posted by MarineTpartier View Post
    I still don't understand how you can put your trust in one group of men you've never met while you can't put your trust into another group of men you've never met. What, scientists don't have a vested interest in their theories and discoveries being accepted as doctrine and common belief? The best part is what you are calling logic is in fact faith. You have faith in those scientists that they are telling the truth. There is no logic behind your belief in them. That is, unless you have some sort of degree or experience in geology.
    I think you may have misunderstood me when I said I believe in logic. I meant my own logic. Being able to look at the various fossils and skeletons and see that it is obvious that animals have changed and evolved. Using my own logic to realize that it is much more likely that the flood happened in one region of the world and not the entire planet because of the knowledge I have of physics and biology and the information that is available.

    And humans, as a whole, don't really change. Logic can tell anyone that people are generally going to be mostly good, as individuals. It is illogical to believe that most of any population would actually be bad/evil. And many of the stories of the Bible absolutely remind me of some of the other stories in other religions/past cultures in which people explained things by invoking some god as the reason for it. It isn't something that needs to be pointed out to me because I can see it for myself.

    I don't believe that a higher power has any necessity to change the laws of physics or biology or any other natural laws just to kill us off or prove a point. If He/She did, then why not do it now? Why hasn't a higher power talked to someone here since thousands of years ago to tell us we were going to face natural disasters or diseases or whatever for our wicked ways? It is much more logical that God may do little things that are within His laws of nature already established to help out people, but not to kill people. He/She wants us to live our lives, for our souls to gain experience.

    Quote Originally Posted by MarineTpartier View Post
    Soooo, how is my God so horrible but yours isn't? I am assuming that the reincarnation you believe in has human beings return as human beings again. So, if I am horrible in this life I receive punishment in the next life correct? So how am I able to break out of this downward spiral of continuously accruing punishment if the god that you believe in doesn't interfere with my life? Where else do I turn? At least my God bails you out once you realize you screwed up. He doesn't just continue to pile on the misery.
    Because my God shows empathy to everyone, not just those who believe in the Bible. All it requires to move to good places eventually for my God is to live as good of a life as the person can. Let your soul grow and experience life. No need to actually believe at all. Just be good to your fellow man. Don't do things that would be considered evil, not just wrong. And homosexuality or even casual sex isn't wrong because it is natural and as long as it isn't truly hurting someone, then it wouldn't go against the being good to your fellow man thing.

    And, actually no I don't believe that people all come back as humans, just sentient beings. The purpose would be to grow a person's soul through experiences, so it would need to learn from both the good and bad experiences. There is more but it isn't really important to our discussion.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  4. #204
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    Re: NAACP Backs Same-Sex Marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    The beliefs in what the Bible says changes all the time. I don't know how you can say it doesn't. People used to believe the Bible condoned slavery and considered interracial marriage a sin. Some still believe both of these things, while others don't. There are thousands of denominations of Christianity for the pure fact that most people believe that the Bible means different things. I know what the Bible says. I have been reading it since I very young. It contradicts itself and science, unless you absolutely do not take it at face value.
    I said the Bible doesn't change. Of course people do. That's the point of my whole argument is that scientists contradict themselves all the time. I agree that there are many different religions out there that try to intepret the Bible in many different ways. I believe God didn't intend for the Bible to be as complicated as we try to make it. We, as human beings, tend to overthink things. I take the Bible for what it says and practically apply it to my life. That's all I can do. I can't control what a Jehovah's Witness says about the Bible or a Mormon says about the Bible. I am one person. I am telling you what I believe and that is that the Bible is a book that is to be taken at face value.
    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    I think you may have misunderstood me when I said I believe in logic. I meant my own logic. Being able to look at the various fossils and skeletons and see that it is obvious that animals have changed and evolved. Using my own logic to realize that it is much more likely that the flood happened in one region of the world and not the entire planet because of the knowledge I have of physics and biology and the information that is available.
    It doesn't matter whose logic it is. I'll ask the question again. What real understanding do you have of fossils, physics, or biology? Do you have some sort of degree in those subjects? The Bible requires no degree to understand. Anyone can decipher the words of the Bible.
    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    And humans, as a whole, don't really change. Logic can tell anyone that people are generally going to be mostly good, as individuals. It is illogical to believe that most of any population would actually be bad/evil. And many of the stories of the Bible absolutely remind me of some of the other stories in other religions/past cultures in which people explained things by invoking some god as the reason for it. It isn't something that needs to be pointed out to me because I can see it for myself.
    You've never heard of the Germans? How about the various tribes in Africa that commit genocide and rape the women of another tribe simply because they are in said tribe. I don't know what you've experienced in your life, but, I've seen the worst side of man and believe he is more than capable of evil.
    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    I don't believe that a higher power has any necessity to change the laws of physics or biology or any other natural laws just to kill us off or prove a point. If He/She did, then why not do it now? Why hasn't a higher power talked to someone here since thousands of years ago to tell us we were going to face natural disasters or diseases or whatever for our wicked ways? It is much more logical that God may do little things that are within His laws of nature already established to help out people, but not to kill people. He/She wants us to live our lives, for our souls to gain experience.
    You subscribe to the belief that God has to abide by those laws of physics and biology. Who set those laws? We did. Why would the Creator of the world and human beings abide by the laws of His creation? He would cease to be God. He would turn into just another being then. My God knows no bounds.


    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Because my God shows empathy to everyone, not just those who believe in the Bible. All it requires to move to good places eventually for my God is to live as good of a life as the person can. Let your soul grow and experience life. No need to actually believe at all. Just be good to your fellow man. Don't do things that would be considered evil, not just wrong. And homosexuality or even casual sex isn't wrong because it is natural and as long as it isn't truly hurting someone, then it wouldn't go against the being good to your fellow man thing.
    And, actually no I don't believe that people all come back as humans, just sentient beings. The purpose would be to grow a person's soul through experiences, so it would need to learn from both the good and bad experiences. There is more but it isn't really important to our discussion.
    So, what animal were you before this life?
    Last edited by MarineTpartier; 06-02-12 at 12:48 PM.
    “Mr. Speaker, I once again find myself compelled to vote against the annual budget resolution for a very simple reason: it makes government bigger.” ― Ron Paul
    Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of Liberty. – Thomas Jefferson

  5. #205
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    Re: NAACP Backs Same-Sex Marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by MarineTpartier View Post
    Boo, sorry, but I'm not tracking what exactly the purpose of this post was. Maybe it's because I haven't slept a lot or something but I'm seriously just staring at the screen on this one.
    Maybe it'll make sense later.

    However, it is easy, we see what we've done so we know. Knowing often breeds not only understanding, but Humility.

    That was to our judgement.

    Than I tried to direct you to the library to investigate better the problems with thinking the Bible addressess homosexuality. Many believe the truth is that it says nothing about homosexuality at all.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: NAACP Backs Same-Sex Marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by MarineTpartier View Post
    And I showed you that science isn't always right. Science changes all the time. What were thought to be facts are debunked regularly in the world of science.
    The earth being flat, the canals meaning life on Mars were only supported by preliminary observations, and limited ones at that.

    There was no empirical evidence, no mathematical substance, no way of even experimenting. And when some one came along and applied those scientific measurements to the flat earth, or the Geo-centric theory, we found we were wrong.

    On the other hand, we have mountains of data to support the theories we have now:

    Early Theories of Evolution: Evidence of Evolution

    29+ Evidences for Macroevolution: The Scientific Case for Common Descent

    Short Proof of Evolution

    Age of the Earth - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Geologic Time: Age of the Earth

    The Age of the Earth

    On the other hand, the only proof of a flat earth was, "Hey, looks flat to me."

    And facts, once scientifically tested and proven, are hardly ever changed.
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    -FDR

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    Re: NAACP Backs Same-Sex Marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by MarineTpartier View Post
    I said the Bible doesn't change. Of course people do. That's the point of my whole argument is that scientists contradict themselves all the time. I agree that there are many different religions out there that try to intepret the Bible in many different ways. I believe God didn't intend for the Bible to be as complicated as we try to make it. We, as human beings, tend to overthink things. I take the Bible for what it says and practically apply it to my life. That's all I can do. I can't control what a Jehovah's Witness says about the Bible or a Mormon says about the Bible. I am one person. I am telling you what I believe and that is that the Bible is a book that is to be taken at face value.
    The Bible was written by man. No matter what you may believe, it was written by men. And men interpret it. That is the pure facts and God would know these things. If He wanted it to be better understood, He wouldn't have written it as men do or had it written as men do. He would have found some way to make sure as many people as possible read exactly the same thing, or at least pretty damn close to it, every time it was written. There is more debate over what the Bible says and how to interpret it than probably any other book in history. I see that as a problem when people try to say that the Bible is the word of God and tell others how they should take the Bible and its meanings/stories.

    Quote Originally Posted by MarineTpartier View Post
    It doesn't matter whose logic it is. I'll ask the question again. What real understanding do you have of fossils, physics, or biology? Do you have some sort of degree in those subjects? The Bible requires no degree to understand. Anyone can decipher the words of the Bible.
    Do you have a degree in theology? How about a working knowledge of Aramaic or Greek or Latin? Are you a historian?

    You have nothing but faith to back up the Bible as being inspired by God. I have evidence. It isn't necessarily absolutely conclusive, since most of science is really just being able to consistently show things will work the same way or has enough evidence for it that it is more likely to be true than something else until more evidence for something else is found.

    Quote Originally Posted by MarineTpartier View Post
    You've never heard of the Germans? How about the various tribes in Africa that commit genocide and rape the women of another tribe simply because they are in said tribe. I don't know what you've experienced in your life, but, I've seen the worst side of man and believe he is more than capable of evil.
    Not all those people are bad/evil. Many yes. But some are led astray rather than actually being evil. They can change given the right knowledge about how and how better it would be to be good rather than do bad.

    You say you've seen the worst side of man and his evil, but then why do you think that God isn't helping those people or destroying them? That is what I don't get. The Bible says that God was willing to destroy towns/cities/the world due to evil, yet He doesn't feel it necessary to do it now? And the whole sending Jesus thing is a copout because we still have plenty of people who will claim that natural disasters or plagues against this country are punishment from God, so why doesn't He do the same to those other places?

    Quote Originally Posted by MarineTpartier View Post
    You subscribe to the belief that God has to abide by those laws of physics and biology. Who set those laws? We did. Why would the Creator of the world and human beings abide by the laws of His creation? He would cease to be God. He would turn into just another being then. My God knows no bounds.
    I don't necessary think God has to abide by those things, I believe He does so in dealing with us because He gave us everything we need and set up everything He needs to do so. Why send a flood if he could just send a virus to target specific people? God can do anything, so why operate in only the bounds of human physics, as most of the Bible stories do? Also, why place all the evidence for evolution and an old earth if only to have something written that contradicts it?

    If the purpose of life is to live it, then it isn't necessary for God to kill us when some do evil things because it would be a part of experience for us.

    Quote Originally Posted by MarineTpartier View Post
    So, what animal were you before this life?
    First of all, I have no idea, because I don't have insight into my past lives. And I've never come across someone who does (although I don't discount the possibility of people who may be able to look into them).

    Second of all, I wasn't necessarily talking about animals, although I don't discount the possibility that certain animals could be sentient. I was rather referring to other lifeforms. You know, sentient beings on other planets, in other galaxies? I even believe other dimensions are possible and the soul could move to those other dimensions.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

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    Re: NAACP Backs Same-Sex Marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Maybe it'll make sense later.

    However, it is easy, we see what we've done so we know. Knowing often breeds not only understanding, but Humility.

    That was to our judgement.

    Than I tried to direct you to the library to investigate better the problems with thinking the Bible addressess homosexuality. Many believe the truth is that it says nothing about homosexuality at all.
    Sorry, but I believe that it does.
    “Mr. Speaker, I once again find myself compelled to vote against the annual budget resolution for a very simple reason: it makes government bigger.” ― Ron Paul
    Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of Liberty. – Thomas Jefferson

  9. #209
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    Re: NAACP Backs Same-Sex Marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by MarineTpartier View Post
    Sorry, but I believe that it does.
    I know you. So did I until I investigated. I believe the issue is clouded at best.

    On a Humorous note, I ran across an Amish report where the reporter apologized profusely for being unable to find any evidence to fully support the Bible being against homosexuals. His apology was longer than his report.
    Last edited by Boo Radley; 06-02-12 at 06:05 PM.

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    Re: NAACP Backs Same-Sex Marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    The Bible was written by man. No matter what you may believe, it was written by men. And men interpret it. That is the pure facts and God would know these things. If He wanted it to be better understood, He wouldn't have written it as men do or had it written as men do. He would have found some way to make sure as many people as possible read exactly the same thing, or at least pretty damn close to it, every time it was written. There is more debate over what the Bible says and how to interpret it than probably any other book in history. I see that as a problem when people try to say that the Bible is the word of God and tell others how they should take the Bible and its meanings/stories.
    The application of the Bible to one's life may be different from person to person. I could read one verse and another guy read the same one and it apply to my life differently. But it still says the same thing. Like I said, I read the Bible for what it says. Your interpretation argument holds no water because we could say that about every single thing in the world. The fact is that God gave us the ability to know what is and what isn't. Sure, some people will twist the Bible to fit the needs of their particular religion. People twist the Constitution to do that same. People twist laws in the same manner. Those same people that twist the Bible to fit their needs will answer for it. Your scientists interpret what you call "proof" to say what they want it to. We could go in circles all day with this.
    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Do you have a degree in theology? How about a working knowledge of Aramaic or Greek or Latin? Are you a historian?
    You have nothing but faith to back up the Bible as being inspired by God. I have evidence. It isn't necessarily absolutely conclusive, since most of science is really just being able to consistently show things will work the same way or has enough evidence for it that it is more likely to be true than something else until more evidence for something else is found.
    You don't need a degree to read the Bible, that's the beauty of it. Anyone can pick up a Bible, read it, and at least understand the basic premises of it. I HIGHLY doubt that you could pick up a geologists or scientists report on carbon dating and the mathematical equations used to accomplish it and walk away saying "Ooooooh, now it makes sense."


    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Not all those people are bad/evil. Many yes. But some are led astray rather than actually being evil. They can change given the right knowledge about how and how better it would be to be good rather than do bad.
    Define being led astray please.
    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    You say you've seen the worst side of man and his evil, but then why do you think that God isn't helping those people or destroying them? That is what I don't get. The Bible says that God was willing to destroy towns/cities/the world due to evil, yet He doesn't feel it necessary to do it now? And the whole sending Jesus thing is a copout because we still have plenty of people who will claim that natural disasters or plagues against this country are punishment from God, so why doesn't He do the same to those other places?
    1) You answered your initial question with the "copout" you call Jesus.
    2) The level of natural disaster's we see today are miniscule compared to something like the great flood. Other than that, I haven't seen any widespread plagues or natural disasters that have taken out tens of thousands of people for awhile.
    3) Do you entertain the thoughts of every nut you hear about? Or is it you just listen to the ones that are using the Bible as a backdrop to justify your feelings against Christianity?
    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    I don't necessary think God has to abide by those things, I believe He does so in dealing with us because He gave us everything we need and set up everything He needs to do so. Why send a flood if he could just send a virus to target specific people? God can do anything, so why operate in only the bounds of human physics, as most of the Bible stories do? Also, why place all the evidence for evolution and an old earth if only to have something written that contradicts it?
    Actually, the great flood wasn't within the bounds of anyone's physics. It's never happened again. Parting the Red Sea has never happened again. I could keep going.
    Is there really evidence of evolution or is it something humans invented? Again, you give your fellow man more credit that he deserves in comparison to God.
    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    First of all, I have no idea, because I don't have insight into my past lives. And I've never come across someone who does (although I don't discount the possibility of people who may be able to look into them).
    Second of all, I wasn't necessarily talking about animals, although I don't discount the possibility that certain animals could be sentient. I was rather referring to other lifeforms. You know, sentient beings on other planets, in other galaxies? I even believe other dimensions are possible and the soul could move to those other dimensions.
    So how the heck do you "learn" from other lives as you said earlier if you don't even know it happened? Learning requires memory correct? Also, what historical documents do you have backing that there are other planets/galaxies with life forms on them? What evidence of other dimensions do you have?
    “Mr. Speaker, I once again find myself compelled to vote against the annual budget resolution for a very simple reason: it makes government bigger.” ― Ron Paul
    Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of Liberty. – Thomas Jefferson

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