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Thread: Malaysia Tribunal finds Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld guilty of war crimes

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    Re: Malaysia Tribunal finds Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld guilty of war crimes

    Yeah, you have to wonder when the America bashers in Malaysia and here on this forum start demanding the trial of Robert Mugabe or some of the real despots in this world. I'm guessing 'never' would be the answer to that.
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    Re: Malaysia Tribunal finds Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld guilty of war crimes

    Quote Originally Posted by Res Cogitans View Post
    2) Are courts like this even legitimate in the first place? Should they be? and what would it take for them to earn legitimacy?
    The International Criminal Court is the only official tribunal to prosecute war criminals and the decision reached by the Malaysian tribunal is meant to be a mere symbolic gesture. 41 UN member states have neither signed nor ratified or acceded to the Rome Statute including China, India and the US, which undermines the ICC's legitimacy because only a state party accepts the jurisdiction of the ICC with respect to the crimes.

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    Re: Malaysia Tribunal finds Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld guilty of war crimes

    Quote Originally Posted by ThirdTerm View Post
    The International Criminal Court is the only official tribunal to prosecute war criminals and the decision reached by the Malaysian tribunal is meant to be a mere symbolic gesture. 41 UN member states have neither signed nor ratified or acceded to the Rome Statute including China, India and the US, which undermines the ICC's legitimacy because only a state party accepts the jurisdiction of the ICC with respect to the crimes.
    Yes, but that doesn't mean it this foolish Malaysian group of nobodies won't encourage the goofy leftists of the world. This is what they live for.

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    Re: Malaysia Tribunal finds Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld guilty of war crimes

    Quote Originally Posted by 305rob305 View Post
    It's funny they don't find horrible dictators around the world guilty of many criminal wrongdoing including murder...
    How do you know? Who do they even try?
    "The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts."
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    Re: Malaysia Tribunal finds Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld guilty of war crimes

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarcogito View Post
    Many Americans don't give a damn what rest of the world thinks. The "My country, right or wrong" attitude is far too prevelant. Other countries better not step out of line, but we can do what we want.
    You say that like it's a bad thing.
    I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on whats being proposed here, hed agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute. - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


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    Re: Malaysia Tribunal finds Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld guilty of war crimes

    I really don't care what a country like Malaysia says about Bush. Same if it made a verdict against Obama.

    If you want people to take you seriously then bring your case to America through our legal system. Otherwise people will simply point and laugh.

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    Re: Malaysia Tribunal finds Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld guilty of war crimes

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    In my view, the balance of power is shifting. The balance of power has never been static, so the reality of an ongoing evolution should not shocking. It need not be disconcerting either, so long as the U.S. understands its position in the balance of power, focuses on its interests and allies, and makes the diplomatic, financial, and military investments to preserve a balance of power that is compatible with its strategic interests. The U.S. has that capability. Whether it will sustain that capability were it to make (or fail to make) necessary policy choices is a different matter.

    The rise of China, among other developments, will restore understanding that the balance of power is a key factor in promoting international stability. The assumptions by some post-Realist foreign policy thinkers that the balance of power was some obsolete calculus of an irrelevant past or had been superseded by American preeminence are being shattered. That the U.S. is the world's dominant power, and likely to remain dominant for perhaps an extended period of time, is not the same thing as preeminence. Even the U.S. has limits. The messy outcomes in Iraq and Afghanistan offer some examples.

    Recognition of the importance of the balance of power will not render diplomacy and its instruments obsolete. Indeed, one could argue that the art of diplomacy reached a high point in pre-WW I Europe during a period when the balance of power was the dominant foreign policy calculation. The ongoing changes will likely require that other countries' interests and spheres of influence be taken into consideration in bilateral and multilateral diplomacy. That, too, is not necessarily a bad thing. No treaty has ever been sustainable on its own when it ignored a party's critical interests. The Treaty of Versailles at the end of WW I is a classic example of how badly a punitive and unbalanced treaty can disintegrate. Such treaties can only be sustained by a continual willingness to impose their terms by force whenever challenges arise. Few, if any, countries are willing or able to make such open-ended commitments.

    Finally, even as climate change is underway, it does not affect every country's interests equally. China's paramount interest is maintaining its economic growth. Its government continues to view economic growth and development as the foundation for stability. Even as climate scientists argue for reductions in CO2 emissions, the science collides with China's economic needs. At present, were China to engage in robust reductions in CO2 emissions, it could only do so by slashing its economic growth. Insufficient alternatives to conventional energy sources are available. To be sure, China is investing significantly in solar power, but investments in solar power and other alternatives will have a medium- and longer-term payoff. Those payoffs won't address China's immediate energy needs. Hence, China views the issue from the perspective of its national interests and it is unwilling to agree to any kind of CO2 emissions caps. Similarly, the U.S. has also declined to accept CO2 emissions caps or similar mechanisms for reducing its CO2 emissions. In both cases, national interests have trumped scientific understanding, even as such an outcome will have a global impact (an externality of sorts).
    I am in complete agreement. Your post is damn close to the most erudite one I've ever read.

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    Re: Malaysia Tribunal finds Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld guilty of war crimes

    Very interesting and somewhat predictable responses to the original post.

    The bipolar response by some of the radical right is text book. Chest puffing burn down the villiage down if they dare combined with ill informed but very studly calls for barrett lobotomies- the barret even with the borus system is more as COM weapon than T-Boxer. For dependable T-Boxing the M24 is OUTstanding in it's field!

    Then scoffing at the opposite thought as 'mouthfoamies????' Attacking a court for not trying every war crime negates any attempt? That undermines our domestic court system.

    Anywho, fun to watch the anger and angst. Have noted none of the mentioned BushII officials seem to eager to tour the world that they claim to have made a better, safer place. Only Wolfowitz attempted great things outside the USofA and we saw how a repeat, on a personal level, of his Iraqi Strategy. Perhaps while the chest thumpers feel the USofA would wipeout anyone attempting to detain BushII while abroad, BushII's handlers don't seem eager to have the Former Decider in Chief do a good will tour.

    Be that as it may, as our nation sinks and other nation's ascend oneday our leaders will be held accountable for what now is considered a Divine Right.

    My Country Right or Wrong... probably a better phrase for a soldier than a citizen, unless the citizen has no say in the direction of his country. Does seem more a saying for the Wehrmacht than the US Army though.

    I prefer, "My Country, her reputation is my most sacred trust"

    The use of current gas prices in the USofA as 'proof' it wasn't about the oil is flawed. That a reason wasn't obtained doesn't mean it wasn't a goal. That is to say Nazi Germany's War in the East wasn't for Leberstraum because after the war Germany was reduced in size. That the citizen at the pump sees no advantage doesn't mean no one benefited. That the dreams of Iraq War paying for itself failed disastrously doesn't mean it wasn't part of the projected pay-off.

    Who knows, one day, maybe not in our lifetime, powerful nations will evolve past grade school philosophy-

    "Because I can...."
    Last edited by notquiteright; 05-15-12 at 06:19 PM.

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    Re: Malaysia Tribunal finds Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld guilty of war crimes

    I think America is way too divided into mutually hostile camps for any one to refer to Americans by using the pronouns "we," "our," or "us."

  10. #80
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    Re: Malaysia Tribunal finds Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld guilty of war crimes

    I just dont understand how we as a country let our leaders off this easy when the openly lied to us to go to war with a nation...


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