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Thread: Malaysia Tribunal finds Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld guilty of war crimes

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    Re: Malaysia Tribunal finds Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld guilty of war crimes

    Quote Originally Posted by Leo View Post
    Are not Americans concerned about their reputation as a just people?
    The "court" that tried these individuals admittedly has an anti western agenda. Should you wish to hang your hat on their ruling that is your choice. Their ruling is dispositive of nothing. Again I would like to remind you they have tee shirts and other merchandise for sale.

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    Re: Malaysia Tribunal finds Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld guilty of war crimes

    Quote Originally Posted by Connery View Post
    The "court" that tried these individuals admittedly has an anti western agenda. Should you wish to hang your hat on their ruling that is your choice. Their ruling is dispositive of nothing. Again I would like to remind you they have tee shirts and other merchandise for sale.
    It's not about the authority of the court in question, it's about the world standing of the US.

    BTW, Rick Santorum sells sweater vests if T-shirts aren't your thing.

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    Re: Malaysia Tribunal finds Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld guilty of war crimes

    Quote Originally Posted by Res Cogitans View Post
    The issue here is one of two lines of questioning: 1) Should American Presidents be immune to international law? If so, why? 2) Are courts like this even legitimate in the first place? Should they be? and what would it take for them to earn legitimacy?
    The questions of immunity are as abstract as international law itself, which after all can only be enforced when those who have the power and will to do so. Funny thing about law, ain't it?

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    Re: Malaysia Tribunal finds Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld guilty of war crimes

    Quote Originally Posted by Connery View Post
    The "court" that tried these individuals admittedly has an anti western agenda. Should you wish to hang your hat on their ruling that is your choice. Their ruling is dispositive of nothing. Again I would like to remind you they have tee shirts and other merchandise for sale.
    I am not sure what the retailing of T-shirts has to do with the legitimacy of the Kuala Lumpur War Crimes Commission, but I am prepared to accept the allegation of some bias in the chairman - Mahathir Mohamad (he has a history of criticising the British and the Australians). However the modus operandi of the commission was customary for such judicial bodies.

    The trial, held in Malaysia's capital Kuala Lumpur, featured testimony by victims whom US military contractors and soldiers had violently abused. Full transcripts of witness statements and other content will be given to the Prosecutor of the International Criminal Court, the United Nations, and the Security Council. Additionally, the tribunal has requested that the names of Bush and the six others be added to the Commission's Register of War Criminals.
    Malaysia tribunal finds Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld guilty of war crimes - OpenGlobe

    I have already pointed to the circumstances of the Iraqi invasion, its consequences, and the invalidity of the casus bellum supplied. These could be taken as justification for the findings of the Malaysian tribunal, but whether that is accepted or not, it is proper that the case against those responsible for crimes against humanity be examined by an impartial legal body - e.g: the ICC. I am surprised that there should be any objection to this.
    I hate the idea of causes, and if I had to choose between betraying my country and betraying my friend, I hope I should have the guts to betray my country. E.M. Forster

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    Re: Malaysia Tribunal finds Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld guilty of war crimes

    Quote Originally Posted by Leo View Post
    The invasion of Iraq, and the fact that it was not conducted by legal force of an UN Security Council Resolution, are indisputable facts, for which a veritable mountain of evidence exists, and the justification given by the Bush administration (that of WMD stockpiles) has proven to be baseless.
    You should be a bit more educated on the subject before you step and throw around these claims. There was far more reasons than the WMD stockpiles (which Bush had reason to believe were there) that led to the removal of Hussein.

    Ex-President George Bush has stated that he authorised water-boarding (regarded internationally as torture), and both detention without trial, and extraordinary rendition, (for which evidence exists) are internationally regarded as crimes.
    Prisoners of war are taken in virtually every war known to man.

    Tens of thousands of Iraqi civilians have died as a result of the invasion, so deeds which may be regarded as crimes against humanity have certainly been committed.
    Which was down from the hundreds of thousands being slaughtered under Saddam. Furthermore the majority of innocent people dying in Iraq were killed by terrorists in that country.

    Are not Americans concerned about their reputation as a just people?
    When the country finding them guilty of war crimes has no credibility then no I am not worried about their opinion. These people come out publically and make this claim without the facts, without the information. They did so without the "defendants" refuting whatever evidence they did have which is likely newspaper and time magazine clippings. When someone who has all the information and puts forth a legitimate hearing maybe I'll care what they say.
    “Most people do not listen with the intent to understand; they listen with the intent to reply.”
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    Re: Malaysia Tribunal finds Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld guilty of war crimes

    Quote Originally Posted by muciti View Post
    You should be a bit more educated on the subject before you step and throw around these claims. There was far more reasons than the WMD stockpiles (which Bush had reason to believe were there) that led to the removal of Hussein.
    What were they?
    I hate the idea of causes, and if I had to choose between betraying my country and betraying my friend, I hope I should have the guts to betray my country. E.M. Forster

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    Re: Malaysia Tribunal finds Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld guilty of war crimes

    IMO, labeling leaders with whom one has a foreign policy difference as "war criminals" only dilutes the instruments and standards for dealing with actual war criminals. Bad legal interpretations are not the same thing as willful choice to sanction war crimes. This publicity stunt will garner some attention. It won't help, and could potentially hurt, genuine efforts to curb war crimes and other crimes against humanity.

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    Re: Malaysia Tribunal finds Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld guilty of war crimes

    Quote Originally Posted by Leo View Post
    What were they?
    Iraq War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Reasons for War: Things you might have forgotten about Iraq.

    BalancedPolitics.org - War on Iraq (Pros & Cons, Arguments For and Against, Advantages & Disadvantages)

    Start with these. Keep reading up on your own.

    Recommended Reading


    Why Iraq Was Inevitable (article by Arthur Herman)
    The Clinton Administration's Public Case Against Saddam Hussein
    The Saddam-al Qaeda link
    12 Iraqi War Myths from www.TheReligionofPeace.com
    Saddam Hussein's Philanthropy of Terror - by Deroy Murdock
    Debunking 8 anti-war myths lied about the conflict in Iraq
    WMD Stockpiles Or No Stockpiles: 11 Reasons Why We Were Right To Hit Iraq
    The Mother of All Connections (between Iraq and al-Qaeda)
    Life Under Saddam Hussein (White House press release)
    See men shredded, then say you don't back war
    IRAQ- some links to terror by 'backhoe'
    Links to articles connecting Saddam, Al Qaeda, and terrorism by 'peach'
    The Connection : How al Qaeda's Collaboration with Saddam Hussein Has Endangered America (book by Stephen Hayes)
    Saddam: King of Terror (book by Con Coughlin)
    WMD: The Murderous Reign of Saddam Hussein (movie/documentary)
    Translating the Iraq Documents (blog by jveritas)
    Regime of Terror: Documenting Saddam Hussein's Support of Terrorism (blog by Mark Eichenlaub)
    Foundation for Defense of Democracies
    Download FlowPlayer (free video player for the web)
    Download videos from www.reasons-for-war-with-iraq.info
    The New York Times - search news articles going back to 1851
    Google News Archive Search - historical archives going back decades
    NewsLibrary.com - news research made easy
    Last edited by Kreton; 05-14-12 at 11:06 AM.
    “Most people do not listen with the intent to understand; they listen with the intent to reply.”
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    Re: Malaysia Tribunal finds Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld guilty of war crimes

    Quote Originally Posted by Leo View Post
    What were they?
    Whether one agrees or disagrees, one can find President Bush's reasoning in his 2003 State-of-the-Union Address, which is a matter of public record:

    Today, the gravest danger in the war on terror, the gravest danger facing America and the world, is outlaw regimes that seek and possess nuclear, chemical, and biological weapons. These regimes could use such weapons for blackmail, terror, and mass murder. They could also give or sell those weapons to terrorist allies, who would use them without the least hesitation...

    Our nation and the world must learn the lessons of the Korean Peninsula and not allow an even greater threat to rise up in Iraq. A brutal dictator, with a history of reckless aggression, with ties to terrorism, with great potential wealth, will not be permitted to dominate a vital region and threaten the United States.

    Twelve years ago, Saddam Hussein faced the prospect of being the last casualty in a war he had started and lost. To spare himself, he agreed to disarm of all weapons of mass destruction. For the next 12 years, he systematically violated that agreement. He pursued chemical, biological, and nuclear weapons, even while inspectors were in his country. Nothing to date has restrained him from his pursuit of these weapons -- not economic sanctions, not isolation from the civilized world, not even cruise missile strikes on his military facilities.

    Almost three months ago, the United Nations Security Council gave Saddam Hussein his final chance to disarm. He has shown instead utter contempt for the United Nations, and for the opinion of the world. The 108 U.N. inspectors were sent to conduct -- were not sent to conduct a scavenger hunt for hidden materials across a country the size of California. The job of the inspectors is to verify that Iraq's regime is disarming. It is up to Iraq to show exactly where it is hiding its banned weapons, lay those weapons out for the world to see, and destroy them as directed. Nothing like this has happened.

    The United Nations concluded in 1999 that Saddam Hussein had biological weapons sufficient to produce over 25,000 liters of anthrax -- enough doses to kill several million people. He hasn't accounted for that material. He's given no evidence that he has destroyed it.

    The United Nations concluded that Saddam Hussein had materials sufficient to produce more than 38,000 liters of botulinum toxin -- enough to subject millions of people to death by respiratory failure. He hadn't accounted for that material. He's given no evidence that he has destroyed it.

    Our intelligence officials estimate that Saddam Hussein had the materials to produce as much as 500 tons of sarin, mustard and VX nerve agent. In such quantities, these chemical agents could also kill untold thousands. He's not accounted for these materials. He has given no evidence that he has destroyed them.

    U.S. intelligence indicates that Saddam Hussein had upwards of 30,000 munitions capable of delivering chemical agents. Inspectors recently turned up 16 of them -- despite Iraq's recent declaration denying their existence. Saddam Hussein has not accounted for the remaining 29,984 of these prohibited munitions. He's given no evidence that he has destroyed them.

    From three Iraqi defectors we know that Iraq, in the late 1990s, had several mobile biological weapons labs. These are designed to produce germ warfare agents, and can be moved from place to a place to evade inspectors. Saddam Hussein has not disclosed these facilities. He's given no evidence that he has destroyed them.

    The International Atomic Energy Agency confirmed in the 1990s that Saddam Hussein had an advanced nuclear weapons development program, had a design for a nuclear weapon and was working on five different methods of enriching uranium for a bomb. The British government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa. Our intelligence sources tell us that he has attempted to purchase high-strength aluminum tubes suitable for nuclear weapons production. Saddam Hussein has not credibly explained these activities. He clearly has much to hide.

    The dictator of Iraq is not disarming. To the contrary; he is deceiving. From intelligence sources we know, for instance, that thousands of Iraqi security personnel are at work hiding documents and materials from the U.N. inspectors, sanitizing inspection sites and monitoring the inspectors themselves. Iraqi officials accompany the inspectors in order to intimidate witnesses.

    Iraq is blocking U-2 surveillance flights requested by the United Nations. Iraqi intelligence officers are posing as the scientists inspectors are supposed to interview. Real scientists have been coached by Iraqi officials on what to say. Intelligence sources indicate that Saddam Hussein has ordered that scientists who cooperate with U.N. inspectors in disarming Iraq will be killed, along with their families.

    Year after year, Saddam Hussein has gone to elaborate lengths, spent enormous sums, taken great risks to build and keep weapons of mass destruction. But why? The only possible explanation, the only possible use he could have for those weapons, is to dominate, intimidate, or attack.

    With nuclear arms or a full arsenal of chemical and biological weapons, Saddam Hussein could resume his ambitions of conquest in the Middle East and create deadly havoc in that region. And this Congress and the America people must recognize another threat. Evidence from intelligence sources, secret communications, and statements by people now in custody reveal that Saddam Hussein aids and protects terrorists, including members of al Qaeda. Secretly, and without fingerprints, he could provide one of his hidden weapons to terrorists, or help them develop their own.

    Before September the 11th, many in the world believed that Saddam Hussein could be contained. But chemical agents, lethal viruses and shadowy terrorist networks are not easily contained. Imagine those 19 hijackers with other weapons and other plans -- this time armed by Saddam Hussein. It would take one vial, one canister, one crate slipped into this country to bring a day of horror like none we have ever known. We will do everything in our power to make sure that that day never comes.
    President Delivers "State of the Union"

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    Re: Malaysia Tribunal finds Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld guilty of war crimes

    Quote Originally Posted by Leo View Post
    I am not sure what the retailing of T-shirts has to do with the legitimacy of the Kuala Lumpur War Crimes Commission, but I am prepared to accept the allegation of some bias in the chairman - Mahathir Mohamad (he has a history of criticising the British and the Australians). However the modus operandi of the commission was customary for such judicial bodies.

    .

    To accept a bias and then declare that it was a fair "trial' connotes mutually exclusive terms; terms and ideals that cannot be reconciled. The tee shirt thing is for those who wish to support this "tribunal".


    This is not a "judicial body" but a group of people who wish to caucus over an issue and carry no more credibility than an internet forum.

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