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Thread: Malaysia Tribunal finds Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld guilty of war crimes

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    Re: Malaysia Tribunal finds Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld guilty of war crimes

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    In my view, the balance of power is shifting. The balance of power has never been static, so the reality of an ongoing evolution should not shocking. It need not be disconcerting either, so long as the U.S. understands its position in the balance of power, focuses on its interests and allies, and makes the diplomatic, financial, and military investments to preserve a balance of power that is compatible with its strategic interests. The U.S. has that capability. Whether it will sustain that capability were it to make (or fail to make) necessary policy choices is a different matter.
    World powers have always been centered around Europe or the United States, never an Asian power, and despite the subtle differences between Europe and America there has also been a similarity based on culture, religion, philosophy, etc. Therefore it is difficult to predict how China will behave when their power is fully realized.
    The rise of China, among other developments, will restore understanding that the balance of power is a key factor in promoting international stability. The assumptions by some post-Realist foreign policy thinkers that the balance of power was some obsolete calculus of an irrelevant past or had been superseded by American preeminence are being shattered. That the U.S. is the world's dominant power, and likely to remain dominant for perhaps an extended period of time, is not the same thing as preeminence. Even the U.S. has limits. The messy outcomes in Iraq and Afghanistan offer some examples.
    Not just in Iraq and Afghanistan but in other areas of the world as well, particularly Asia. The American people have repeatedly demonstrated that they don't have the stomach for either a long war or a short one where nuclear weapons would be involved. In fact, as we can see with their own borders, they are largely defenseless, attacking each other rather than those who would do them harm. They tend to believe that their privileged place in the world is a birthright and will continue indefinitely, though without any clear idea of how this might be so.

    Recognition of the importance of the balance of power will not render diplomacy and its instruments obsolete.
    If there is a balance of power. That might be wishful thinking over the next 30 years or so.

    Indeed, one could argue that the art of diplomacy reached a high point in pre-WW I Europe during a period when the balance of power was the dominant foreign policy calculation.
    It seems that the trappings and pretensions of diplomacy was never greater but its effectiveness has to be questioned, given the number of wars which have taken place throughout European history.
    The ongoing changes will likely require that other countries' interests and spheres of influence be taken into consideration in bilateral and multilateral diplomacy. That, too, is not necessarily a bad thing. No treaty has ever been sustainable on its own when it ignored a party's critical interests. The Treaty of Versailles at the end of WW I is a classic example of how badly a punitive and unbalanced treaty can disintegrate. Such treaties can only be sustained by a continual willingness to impose their terms by force whenever challenges arise. Few, if any, countries are willing or able to make such open-ended commitments.
    This would be so if based on European historical references but Europe is no longer a major player and the US a rapidly declining player, in part because of their debt to China but also as a result of a lack of cohesive will.

    Finally, even as climate change is underway, it does not affect every country's interests equally. China's paramount interest is maintaining its economic growth. Its government continues to view economic growth and development as the foundation for stability. Even as climate scientists argue for reductions in CO2 emissions, the science collides with China's economic needs. At present, were China to engage in robust reductions in CO2 emissions, it could only do so by slashing its economic growth. Insufficient alternatives to conventional energy sources are available. To be sure, China is investing significantly in solar power, but investments in solar power and other alternatives will have a medium- and longer-term payoff. Those payoffs won't address China's immediate energy needs. Hence, China views the issue from the perspective of its national interests and it is unwilling to agree to any kind of CO2 emissions caps. Similarly, the U.S. has also declined to accept CO2 emissions caps or similar mechanisms for reducing its CO2 emissions. In both cases, national interests have trumped scientific understanding, even as such an outcome will have a global impact (an externality of sorts).
    China's only interest is China. While Americans, and to a lesser extent the Europeans, try to save the world the Chinese have little interest along these lines. They are far more focused on their own success and thus, over the next couple of generations anyway it seems, the Chinese will be the dominant force in the world. How that will play out is anyone's guess.

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    Re: Malaysia Tribunal finds Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld guilty of war crimes

    China has played the West for fools. Over the course of the last thirty years they have stolen intellectual property or coerced its transfer on a scale unknown before in history. This is one of the reasons why China has been able to seize the process of globalization from America and the rest of the West. Entire industries have been stolen.

    The Chinese understand Americans, but Americans do not understand the Han Chinese. Anyone who has read the Art of War should be able to comprehend what is happening. Sun Tzu and my esteemed Taiwanese Taoist Uncle Reedak who recently joined this site say the same thing...if one knows one's self and one's enemy one need not fear the outcome of a hundred battles.

    The Chinese have our number and have used it to game the free trade system and the notion of globalization on which it is based. And we are clueless about the Chinese...except for a very few Americans.

    The Chinese are completely predictable. Their culture tells us what their actions will be.

    The Han will never accept the role of status quo stakeholder in the international order conceived and imposed by the West over the course of more than a century. That's because they don't consider it legitimate.

    They will engage freely in duplicity with us because they know there is no cost in doing so. No price to be paid. The Han objective is quite clear. They intend to rebalance the world order based on recreation of the Middle Kingdom with the Chinese Communist Party serving as a new dynasty. I am not only relying on what I have read and studied in coming to this conclusion. I've talked with members of the Chinese Communist Party that consider me family. They teasingly call me "lofan."

    The Chinese will be able to reestablish the Middle Kingdom in the form of a sphere of interest extending from east Africa to the Persian Gulf across the Indian Ocean to Indonesia and Australia/New Zealand and up through the South China Sea/the Philippines to Taiwan and the East China Sea to the Yellow Sea, Korean Peninsula and the Sea of Japan. Guam is going to become like Fort Apache.

    The Russian Far East will come under Chinese control indirectly and will serve as a continuing source of natural resources for the Han. About 2025 it's estimated that the Chinese military budget will exceed the American military budget.

    Russia and China will compete for influence and control over the resources of the Central Asian states. India and China have spheres of influence which overlap. The contest between India and China will be the most dangerous. It will be made in the Indian Ocean and in the Himalayas.

    Europe will be a backwater in a state of regression. Europe won't be a player.

    America can withdraw to the Western Hemisphere and use weapons sales and other trade to maintain its influence, but America should not fight foreign wars ever again. If necessary America can sow dragon's teeth for the Chinese that will keep them busy. While generally neo-isolationist, America can still have a role by estalishing its own sphere of influence in the Western Hemisphere.

    The other element that has to be considered is the wildcard of chaos that will be introduced into the new order through the proliferation of nuclear weapons technology and ballistic missile technology. Chaos will introduce unknown players and unforeseeable events that may bring the great powers into conflict.

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    Re: Malaysia Tribunal finds Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld guilty of war crimes

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    this isn't the conspiracy forum. No tinfoil hats please
    Typically lame response when a person doesn't understand an issue. I have stated that OIL companies promote wars because it's good for business. It's done on K Street by lobbyists. I note that of the hundreds of Nations on the planet that we pursue war only where OIL is under the Nations involved. You must want to deny these realities because they are in conflict with your "beliefs" unsupported by facts. You are the conspiracy theorist, not me. I accept reality. Perhaps the band on your hat is adjusted too tight or your curls are a little too tight. Have a nice day and get a new hat. Stay out of the sun.

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    Re: Malaysia Tribunal finds Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld guilty of war crimes

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    and when I became president I would have you tried for capital treason or I would hand you over to whatever country hated the United States the most and had the most horrific forms of soul withering torture. Then I would send a kill team to exterminate those who you allowed to take Bush. If they had killed bush than that country would get "Dresdened" If not, the leaders would get fifty caliber enemas
    I have to admit this is pretty funny.
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    Re: Malaysia Tribunal finds Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld guilty of war crimes

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemSocialist View Post
    I just dont understand how we as a country let our leaders off this easy when the openly lied to us to go to war with a nation...
    A lie has never been proven, so stop alleging it as though it was true. You've got nothing, and if you do let's see it. You just feel like he lied.
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    Re: Malaysia Tribunal finds Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld guilty of war crimes

    Quote Originally Posted by Albert Di Salvo View Post
    China has played the West for fools. Over the course of the last thirty years they have stolen intellectual property or coerced its transfer on a scale unknown before in history. This is one of the reasons why China has been able to seize the process of globalization from America and the rest of the West. Entire industries have been stolen.

    The Chinese understand Americans, but Americans do not understand the Han Chinese. Anyone who has read the Art of War should be able to comprehend what is happening. Sun Tzu and my esteemed Taiwanese Taoist Uncle Reedak who recently joined this site say the same thing...if one knows one's self and one's enemy one need not fear the outcome of a hundred battles.

    The Chinese have our number and have used it to game the free trade system and the notion of globalization on which it is based. And we are clueless about the Chinese...except for a very few Americans.

    The Chinese are completely predictable. Their culture tells us what their actions will be.

    The Han will never accept the role of status quo stakeholder in the international order conceived and imposed by the West over the course of more than a century. That's because they don't consider it legitimate.

    They will engage freely in duplicity with us because they know there is no cost in doing so. No price to be paid. The Han objective is quite clear. They intend to rebalance the world order based on recreation of the Middle Kingdom with the Chinese Communist Party serving as a new dynasty. I am not only relying on what I have read and studied in coming to this conclusion. I've talked with members of the Chinese Communist Party that consider me family. They teasingly call me "lofan."

    The Chinese will be able to reestablish the Middle Kingdom in the form of a sphere of interest extending from east Africa to the Persian Gulf across the Indian Ocean to Indonesia and Australia/New Zealand and up through the South China Sea/the Philippines to Taiwan and the East China Sea to the Yellow Sea, Korean Peninsula and the Sea of Japan. Guam is going to become like Fort Apache.

    The Russian Far East will come under Chinese control indirectly and will serve as a continuing source of natural resources for the Han. About 2025 it's estimated that the Chinese military budget will exceed the American military budget.

    Russia and China will compete for influence and control over the resources of the Central Asian states. India and China have spheres of influence which overlap. The contest between India and China will be the most dangerous. It will be made in the Indian Ocean and in the Himalayas.

    Europe will be a backwater in a state of regression. Europe won't be a player.

    America can withdraw to the Western Hemisphere and use weapons sales and other trade to maintain its influence, but America should not fight foreign wars ever again. If necessary America can sow dragon's teeth for the Chinese that will keep them busy. While generally neo-isolationist, America can still have a role by estalishing its own sphere of influence in the Western Hemisphere.

    The other element that has to be considered is the wildcard of chaos that will be introduced into the new order through the proliferation of nuclear weapons technology and ballistic missile technology. Chaos will introduce unknown players and unforeseeable events that may bring the great powers into conflict.
    You speak as though China is playing the game flawlessly. They are putting plenty of hurt on their internal economy by exporting goods too cheaply. There are inflation concerns from building too much infrastructure and growing too quickly and an aging population that will be a worse problem than most other countries. Flaunting the laws of economics will eventually cost you, as it did the Japanese. The Chinese are like children with a pocket full of new found money. Don't underestimate American businessmen, who the Japanese thought they had outsmarted to their own demise. Our greatest weakness is the shortsighted idiocy of our politicians.
    Last edited by American; 05-16-12 at 12:53 PM.
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    Re: Malaysia Tribunal finds Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld guilty of war crimes

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    A lie has never been proven, so stop alleging it as though it was true. You've got nothing, and if you do let's see it. You just feel like he lied.

    "President George W. Bush and seven of his administration's top officials, including Vice President Dick Cheney, National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice, and Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, made at least 935 false statements in the two years following September 11, 2001, about the national security threat posed by Saddam Hussein's Iraq. Nearly five years after the U.S. invasion of Iraq, an exhaustive examination of the record shows that the statements were part of an orchestrated campaign that effectively galvanized public opinion and, in the process, led the nation to war under decidedly false pretenses.

    On at least 532 separate occasions (in speeches, briefings, interviews, testimony, and the like), Bush and these three key officials, along with Secretary of State Colin Powell, Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz, and White House press secretaries Ari Fleischer and Scott McClellan, stated unequivocally that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction (or was trying to produce or obtain them), links to Al Qaeda, or both. This concerted effort was the underpinning of the Bush administration's case for war."

    Iraq: The War Card | iWatch News by The Center for Public Integrity
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    Re: Malaysia Tribunal finds Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld guilty of war crimes

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    You speak as though China is playing the game flawlessly. They are putting plenty of hurt on their internal economy by exporting goods too cheaply. There are inflation concerns from building too much infrastructure and growing too quickly and an aging population that will be a worse problem than most other countries. Flaunting the laws of economics will eventually cost you, as it did the Japanese. The Chinese are like children with a pocket full of new found money. Don't underestimate American businessmen, who the Japanese thought they had outsmarted to their own demise. Our greatest weakness is the shortsighted idiocy of our politicians.
    I don't disagree with you. There is tremendous inflation built into the system. China has many internal problems from corruption to demographics. There is lots of internal tension. There is a lack of institutions found in other societies. There is uncertainty concerning the transfer of power. A rising generation of Party princelings have no living memory of the Revolution and Civil War.

    But China has a cultural cohesion that takes the place the absence of societal institutions. America lacks such cultural cohesion, and American institutions are becoming hollow and corrupt. China also has something which keeps the lid on the pot. The Chinese Communist Party. The Party is capable of committing unspeakable evil in the service of power.

    Take a look at the divisions of the Americans. It's best if Americans don't screw with the Chinese.

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    Re: Malaysia Tribunal finds Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld guilty of war crimes

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    World powers have always been centered around Europe or the United States, never an Asian power...
    If one widens the lens of history beyond the past 500 years, one finds some great powers in Asia e.g., under Genghis Khan, the Mongol Empire was a world power.

    ...and despite the subtle differences between Europe and America there has also been a similarity based on culture, religion, philosophy, etc. Therefore it is difficult to predict how China will behave when their power is fully realized.
    While China is not necessarily going to conduct itself in accordance with the principles that have evolved out of the West in all areas of policy, there's a lot in China's long history that provides ample insight into how China will conduct its affairs.

    Not just in Iraq and Afghanistan but in other areas of the world as well, particularly Asia. The American people have repeatedly demonstrated that they don't have the stomach for either a long war or a short one where nuclear weapons would be involved. In fact, as we can see with their own borders, they are largely defenseless, attacking each other rather than those who would do them harm. They tend to believe that their privileged place in the world is a birthright and will continue indefinitely, though without any clear idea of how this might be so.
    Unfortunately, that's one of the dilemmas of democracy. On one hand, democratic governance offers greater flexibility than any other system. On the other, policy can only be sustained if it enjoys sufficient public support. Lacking such support, the policy will ultimately be reversed through changes made at the ballot box. This dynamic raises questions as to whether the nation can make sacrifices for the long-term, e.g., significant and sustained fiscal consolidation in the face of demographic change.

    It seems that the trappings and pretensions of diplomacy was never greater but its effectiveness has to be questioned, given the number of wars which have taken place throughout European history.
    The period to which I'm referring is the roughly 100-year period often termed the "Concert of Europe." During that time, there was only one fairly significant war in Crimea. Unpopular as it might be, I would suggest that the outcome for that period was quite superior to the period that began with the establishment of the UN. Since that time, there has been two to four fairly significant wars (Korean War, Vietnam War, Persian Gulf War, and Iraq War) and numerous smaller wars, including some very bloody civil wars in parts of Africa, the Balkans (twice), Middle East, etc. My guess is that careful management of the balance of power (where sovereign states focus on their interests) is a better approach to stability than world organization (where states with vastly different interests are expected to ignore those interests to find the common ground necessary to preserve stability).

    China's only interest is China. While Americans, and to a lesser extent the Europeans, try to save the world the Chinese have little interest along these lines. They are far more focused on their own success and thus, over the next couple of generations anyway it seems, the Chinese will be the dominant force in the world. How that will play out is anyone's guess.
    China's rise is not without barriers. China has a rapidly aging population (far larger issue than the U.S.). China's political structure faces challenges presented by the country's continuing evolution (the recent internal turmoil highlighted by the removal of Bo Xilai offers a symptom of that larger challenge).

    Finally, a focus on the national interest is not necessarily a bad thing. It can facilitate prioritization. It can avoid the overreach and consequences of overreach that are an inherent risk of a pursuit of ideals beyond the constraints of the national interest.

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    Re: Malaysia Tribunal finds Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld guilty of war crimes

    Quote Originally Posted by Gimmesometruth;1060500423



    [url=http://www.iwatchnews.org/accountability/iraq-war-card
    Iraq: The War Card | iWatch News by The Center for Public Integrity[/url]
    The Center for Public Integrity reporting on The Malaysian War Crimes Tribunal. Now that's funny, or rather it would be if it weren't so pathetic.

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