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Thread: Osama Bin Laden Raid Wasn't Based On CIA Torture Interrogations, Senators Say

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    Re: Osama Bin Laden Raid Wasn't Based On CIA Torture Interrogations, Senators Say

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    OK, *I* didn't do anything you're saying here. But on these points, fine; I shouldn't have agreed so quickly.
    I meant to aim it to Dana.
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    Re: Osama Bin Laden Raid Wasn't Based On CIA Torture Interrogations, Senators Say

    Dude. Look.

    In order to determine whether or not something is illegal, you have to examine it. Why is this so hard to understand?
    Again, I not asking you to determine that any specific instance is illegal, I am asking you if you understand that there are laws in the US banning waterboarding. Why are you being so obtuse?



    Considering "theft" has a legal definition, and "waterboarding" does not, this is a very poor analogy.

    But hey, if you want an answer to the literal question, "is waterboarding illegal under US law," without examining any facts, then the answer is a definitive "no." Because "waterboarding" is not mentioned IN US law.

    I have no doubt that you don't understand what I'm getting at here, but hey. It takes all kinds.
    It doesn't have to be since torture is illegal and waterboarding has been found to be a form of torture, ie, waterboarding is an illegal act under US law.



    You're asking poor questions and making silly demands, and you can't even keep track of what you say, not only from post to post, but even within the same post, at times.
    All you have are very silly semantic games that are totally pointless.
    Last edited by Gimmesometruth; 05-08-12 at 07:34 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by trouble13 View Post
    If you wanna know why Trumpsters are ignoring you its for the same reason you ignored the KKKs complaints about Obama.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moderate Right View Post
    When it comes down to it, all facts are cherry picked.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    He didn't say it didn't make sense. He said it is complete nonsense.

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    Re: Osama Bin Laden Raid Wasn't Based On CIA Torture Interrogations, Senators Say

    Quote Originally Posted by Gimmesometruth View Post
    Again, I not asking you to determine that any specific act is illegal, I am asking you if you understand that there are laws in the US banning waterboarding? Why are you being so obtuse?

    It doesn't have to be since torture is illegal and waterboarding has been found to be a form of torture, ie, waterboarding is an illegal act under US law.
    It is almost certain that you do not understand you just contradicted yourself. (Again.)


    All you have are very silly semantic games that are totally pointless.
    Yes, silly "semantic" games like discussing things under the terms of how "illegality" is actually determined.
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

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    Re: Osama Bin Laden Raid Wasn't Based On CIA Torture Interrogations, Senators Say

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    Yes, silly "semantic" games like discussing things under the terms of how "illegality" is actually determined.
    Again, it wasn't a question of determining its illegality, that is already a fact in case law.

    The question was whether or not you understand those laws exists in the US.
    Last edited by Gimmesometruth; 05-08-12 at 07:44 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by trouble13 View Post
    If you wanna know why Trumpsters are ignoring you its for the same reason you ignored the KKKs complaints about Obama.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moderate Right View Post
    When it comes down to it, all facts are cherry picked.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    He didn't say it didn't make sense. He said it is complete nonsense.

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    Re: Osama Bin Laden Raid Wasn't Based On CIA Torture Interrogations, Senators Say

    Quote Originally Posted by Gimmesometruth View Post
    Again, it wasn't a question of determining its illegality, that is already a fact in case law.
    No, it isn't. (Your law review article doesn't even claim this.) This is what you simply don't follow. And if something called "waterboarding" had been found to be torture, it does not mean that what happened in 2003 fits the same description.

    This is why you have to apply law to actual fact.




    The question was whether or not you understand that law exists in the US.
    I understand that you're incompetent to be discussing this with any sense of authority.
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

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    Re: Osama Bin Laden Raid Wasn't Based On CIA Torture Interrogations, Senators Say

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    No, it isn't. (Your law review article doesn't even claim this.) This is what you simply don't follow. And if something called "waterboarding" had been found to be torture, it does not mean that what happened in 2003 fits the same description.
    What in the world are you talking about? In US v Lee (1984) the act was recognized as waterboarding, it was found to be a violation of the "Fifth, Eighth, and Fourteenth Amendments, and therefore it would be a violation of 42 U.S.C. §§ 2000dd and 2000dd-0 prohibiting cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment."

    It is an illegal act under US law.




    This is why you have to apply law to actual fact.
    You are still going in circles on the instance. You are trying to say the law forbidding an act does not exist because the offense has not happened. This is such a bizarro viewpoint. The laws against torture exist, waterboarding has been determined to be torture under US civil, criminal and military law, under international laws that we are a party to.






    I understand that you're incompetent to be discussing this with any sense of authority.
    Nice English, but the personal insults won't get you anywhere other than a banning.
    Last edited by Gimmesometruth; 05-08-12 at 08:13 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by trouble13 View Post
    If you wanna know why Trumpsters are ignoring you its for the same reason you ignored the KKKs complaints about Obama.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moderate Right View Post
    When it comes down to it, all facts are cherry picked.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    He didn't say it didn't make sense. He said it is complete nonsense.

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    Re: Osama Bin Laden Raid Wasn't Based On CIA Torture Interrogations, Senators Say

    Quote Originally Posted by Gimmesometruth View Post
    What in the world are you talking about? In US v Lee (1984) the act was recognized as waterboarding, it was found to be a violation of the "Fifth, Eighth, and Fourteenth Amendments, and therefore it would be a violation of 42 U.S.C. §§ 2000dd and 2000dd-0 prohibiting cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment."

    It is an illegal act under US law.
    Really?

    Here's the highest US v. Lee got:

    744 F.2d 1124

    One circuit court, nothing involving "torture" was affirmed.

    The word "waterboarding" is nowhere in the district court case being affirmed, and best you can say about it is that for one single district in Texas, some form of pouring water on a suspect was called, though not legally found to be, torture.

    This is by no means the same as saying "waterboarding is torture under US law." Violating the 5th, 8th, and 14th Amendments does not establish this.

    The ways to distinguish this case from anything we're discussing here are legion.


    You are still going in circles on the instance.
    Only because you're going there first.


    You are trying to say the law forbidding an act does not exist because the offense has not happened.
    No, I'm trying to sat that the law forbidding an act does not exist because the law forbidding the act does not exist.


    This is such a bizarro viewpoint.
    That's because you have no idea what you're talking about.


    The laws against torture exist


    To which you have to apply facts in order to determine if something fits it.


    waterboarding has been determined to be torture under US civil, criminal
    Show me where.


    and military law, under international laws that we are a party to.
    Both of which are inapplicable in this discussion.


    Nice English, but the personal insults won't get you anywhere other than a banning.
    Whatever. It still doesn't make it incorrect. You have no idea what you're talking about.
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

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    Re: Osama Bin Laden Raid Wasn't Based On CIA Torture Interrogations, Senators Say

    That is the APPEAL, and even it mentioned the charges.
    Lee was indicted along with two other deputies, Floyd Baker and James Glover, and the County Sheriff, James Parker, based on a number of incidents in which prisoners were subjected to a "water torture" in order to prompt confessions to various crimes.
    The fact that one cannot comprehend the laws presented, the cases presented citing the laws, or understanding the cases they bring up.....is not my problem.
    Last edited by Gimmesometruth; 05-08-12 at 10:43 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by trouble13 View Post
    If you wanna know why Trumpsters are ignoring you its for the same reason you ignored the KKKs complaints about Obama.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moderate Right View Post
    When it comes down to it, all facts are cherry picked.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    He didn't say it didn't make sense. He said it is complete nonsense.

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    Re: Osama Bin Laden Raid Wasn't Based On CIA Torture Interrogations, Senators Say

    Quote Originally Posted by Gimmesometruth View Post
    That is the APPEAL, and even it mentioned the charges.

    The fact that one cannot comprehend the laws presented, the cases presented citing the laws, or understanding the cases they bring up.....is not my problem.
    The actual "fact" is that you do not "comprehend" anything I said in my post.

    This is 100% legally accurate:

    One circuit court, nothing involving "torture" was affirmed.

    The word "waterboarding" is nowhere in the district court case being affirmed, and best you can say about it is that for one single district in Texas, some form of pouring water on a suspect was called, though not legally found to be, torture.

    This is by no means the same as saying "waterboarding is torture under US law." Violating the 5th, 8th, and 14th Amendments does not establish this.

    The ways to distinguish this case from anything we're discussing here are legion.
    Your poor understanding of how caselaw actually works NOTwithstanding.
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

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    Re: Osama Bin Laden Raid Wasn't Based On CIA Torture Interrogations, Senators Say

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    I do, because it demonstrates a complete lack of understanding of neoconservatism, no matter how many times I have tried to tell Dan correctly over the years.

    1) Neoconservatism is partly a left-wing concept, and partly a liberal one, and recently a conservative one. Not exclusively leftist.
    2) Irving Kristol was a member of neoconservatism, but not necessarily a pillar of how to understand it. The most famous neoconservative, to be sure, but using him as the neoconservative to be looked at is idiotic at best. Not only is it difficult to figure out where he stood on the recent Iraq War, but you are carrying his intellectual and professional experiences to that of a diverse group of people. A pillar would be what form of neoconservatism it was: domestic, foreign policy from the 1960s-1980s, or foreign policy from the 1990s-2000s.
    3) Irving Kristol was not a "card-carrying member of the Communist Party." Had Dan ever read or watched interviews with many of that young group of New York Intellectuals he would have quickly realized it was the Trostkyists who continuously were ignored by the Communist party, because the young men of the party were forbidden to talk to anyone who was not a Stalinist. They were the enemies of the Communist Party, not friends, let alone the same.
    4) Leo Strauss' students and informal followers represents one wing out of many of the neoconservative persuasion.
    5) Why did you pick Irving Kristol and Leo Struass? Why not Irving Kristol and Norman Podhoretz? Why not Irving Kristol and Robert Kagan? Leo Strauss is to neoconservatism as Sidney Hook, Lionel Trilling, and Henry Scoop Jackson are to Neoconservatism.
    6) That is a highly debatable position of Leo Strauss's work that he promoted the "noble lie," especially in the manner you perceive. Further, I find it odd you are wrapping Hitler with a guy that left Germany because he was Jewish during Hitler's reign and wrote at length about the Nazi menace.
    7) You falsely connect Leo Strauss to the neoconservative impulse for the war in Iraq. Not only does it presume that they purposely lied, rather than cherry picked information to suit their preconceived notions for Saddam's guilt, you also presume Leo Strauss had a hold on the neoconservative movement as a whole, and further, that his ideas were actually used to conduct the war. You ignore the work of Fukuyama who suggested that if anything, neoconservatives had not listened to Strauss, who was arguably highly skeptical of such enterprises to begin with.
    I strongly disagree.

    1) Trotskyists WERE Communists. They happened to adhere to the purist Lenninist line of Communism, and were against Stalinism, for its abandonment of Communist principles and embracing of dictatorship. But make no mistake. Trotskyists WERE Communists.

    2) As for Leo Strauss, it cannot be denied that it was he who brought the concept of Noble Lies into the Neoconservative movement. He taught Noble Lies in at least one of his courses for years at the University of Chicago.
    Last edited by danarhea; 05-09-12 at 11:39 AM.
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