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Thread: Osama Bin Laden Raid Wasn't Based On CIA Torture Interrogations, Senators Say

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    Re: Osama Bin Laden Raid Wasn't Based On CIA Torture Interrogations, Senators Say

    It is an illegal act.
    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    Is it? Define "waterboarding" exactly, and cite the elements of the US code under which it falls, and then apply the specific facts of what actually happened and show this.
    The United States has enacted statutes prohibiting torture and cruel or inhuman treatment. It is these statutes which make waterboarding illegal.[22] The four principal statutes which Congress has adopted to implement the provisions of the foregoing treaties are the Torture Act,[23] the War Crimes Act,[24],and the laws entitled “Prohibition on Cruel, Inhuman, or Degrading Treatment or Punishment of Persons Under Custody or Control of the United States Government”[25] and “Additional Prohibition on Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment.”[26] The first two statutes are criminal laws while the latter two statutes extend civil rights to any person in the custody of the United States anywhere in the world.

    The Torture Act makes it a felony for any person, acting under color of law, to commit an act of torture upon any person within the defendant’s custody or control outside the United States.[27] Torture is defined as the intentional infliction of “severe physical or mental pain or suffering” upon a person within the defendant’s custody or control.[28] To be “severe,” any mental pain or suffering resulting from torture must be “prolonged.”[29] Under this law, torture is punishable by up to twenty years imprisonment unless the victim dies as a result of the torture, in which case the penalty is death or life in prison.[30]

    The War Crimes Act differs from the Torture Act in several respects. It applies to acts committed inside or outside the United States, not simply to acts committed outside the United States.[31] Second, it prohibits actions by any American citizen or any member of the armed forces of the United States, not simply to persons acting under color of law.[32] Third, violations of the War Crimes Act that do not result in death of the victim are punishable by life in prison, not simply for a term of twenty years.[33] Finally, when it was enacted in 1996, the War Crimes Act did not mention torture or any other specific conduct like the Torture Act does, but rather contained a very broad definition of the offense. The original statute provided that “war crimes” included any “grave breach” of the Geneva Conventions.[34] In 2006, in the Military Commissions Act, Congress defined the term “grave breach” of Common Article 3 of the Geneva Convention to include “torture” as well as “cruel or inhuman treatment” of prisoners.[35] As in the Torture Act, the War Crimes Act (as amended by the Military Commissions Act of 2006) defines “torture” as the intentional infliction of “severe physical or mental pain or suffering.”[36] Cruel or inhuman treatment is defined as “serious physical or mental pain or suffering,” and also includes “serious physical abuse.”[37] The law defines “serious physical pain or suffering” as including “extreme physical pain.”[38] All of these clarifications of the term “grave breaches” of Common Article 3 were made retroactive to 1997.[39] The 2006 Act replaced the requirement that mental harm be “prolonged” with a more broad definition that mental harm be merely “serious and non-transitory.”[40]

    The third federal statute that prohibits waterboarding is entitled “Prohibition on Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment of Persons under Custody or Control of the United States Government.”[41] This law was enacted in 2005 as part of the Detainee Treatment Act,[42] and in 2006 it was supplemented in the Military Commissions Act by a statutory provision entitled “Additional Prohibition on Cruel Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment.”[43] These civil rights laws very simply state that no person under the physical control of the United States anywhere in the world may be subjected to any “cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment or punishment,”[44] and they each define “cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment or punishment” to be any treatment or punishment which would violate the Fifth, Eighth, or Fourteenth Amendments to the Constitution of the United States.[45] These civil rights laws award the same rights to all prisoners who are in the custody of the United States anywhere in the world as citizens of the United States are entitled to under the Constitution. This means that if it is unconstitutional to subject prisoners in the United States to waterboarding, then it is illegal to commit this act against prisoners in the War on Terror, wherever they are being detained.

    There is no doubt that waterboarding is illegal under the plain language of each of these four statutes. When it is practiced in other countries, the State Department characterizes waterboarding as “torture.”[46] Waterboarding inflicts “severe pain and suffering” on its victims, both physically and mentally, and therefore it is torture within the meaning of the Torture Act and the War Crimes Act.[47] It inflicts “serious pain and suffering” upon its victims, and it qualifies as “serious physical abuse,” therefore it is “cruel or inhuman treatment” within the meaning of the War Crimes Act.[48] Finally, American courts have ruled that when prisoners in the United States are subjected to waterboarding, it is a violation of the Fifth, Eighth, and Fourteenth Amendments, and therefore it would be a violation of 42 U.S.C. §§ 2000dd and 2000dd-0 prohibiting cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment.[49]
    Waterboarding is Illegal - Washington University Law Review

    It was also found to be a violation of Civil Rights in United States v. Lee, 744 F.2d 1124 (5th Cir. 1984).
    Quote Originally Posted by trouble13 View Post
    If you wanna know why Trumpsters are ignoring you its for the same reason you ignored the KKKs complaints about Obama.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moderate Right View Post
    When it comes down to it, all facts are cherry picked.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    He didn't say it didn't make sense. He said it is complete nonsense.

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    Re: Osama Bin Laden Raid Wasn't Based On CIA Torture Interrogations, Senators Say

    A little more on the Japanese convictions...

    The charge and specifications against Hata were: Charge: That the following member of the Imperial Japanese Army with his then known title: Seitaro Hata, Surgeon First Lieutenant,, at the times and places set forth in the specifications hereto attached, and during a time of war between the United States of America and its Allies and Dependencies, and Japan, did violate the Laws and Customs of War. Specification 3. That in or about July or August, 1943, at Fukoka Prisoner of War Branch Camp Number Three, Fukuoka ken, Kyushu, Japan, the accused Seitaro Hata, did willfully and unlawfully, brutally mistreat and torture Morris O. Killough, an American Prisoner of War, by beating and kicking him; by fastening him on a stretcher and pouring water up his nostrils. Specification 5. That on or about 15 May, 1944, at Fukoka Prisoner of War Branch Camp Number Three, Fukuoka ken, Kyushu, Japan, the accused Seitaro Hata, did, willfully and unlawfully, brutally mistreat and torture Thomas B. Armitage, William O Cash and Munroe Dave Woodall, American Prisoners of War by beating and kicking them; by forcing water into their mouths and noses; and by pressing lighted cigarettes against their bodies.
    ^ The charge and specifications against Asano were: Charge: That between 1 April, 1943 and 31 August, 1944, at Fukoka Prisoner of War Branch Camp Number 3, Kyushu, Japan, the accused Yukio Asana, then a civilian serving as an interpreter with the Armed Forces of Japan, a nation then at war with the United States of America and its Allies, did violate the Laws and Customs of War. Specification 1: That in or about July or August, 1943, the accused Yukio Asano, did willfully and unlawfully, brutally mistreat and torture Morris O. Killough, an American Prisoner of War, by beating and kicking him; by fastening him on a stretcher and pouring water up his nostrils. Specification 2: That on or about 15 May, 1944, at Fukoka Prisoner of War Branch Camp Number 3, Kyushu, Japan, the accused Yukio Asano, did, willfully and unlawfully, brutally mistreat and torture Thomas B. Armitage, William O Cash and Munroe Dave Woodall, American Prisoners of War by beating and kicking them, by forcing water into their mouths and noses; and by pressing lighted cigarettes against their bodies. Specification 5. That between 1 April, 1943 and 31 December, 1943, the accused Yukio Asano, did, willfully and unlawfully, brutally mistreat and torture John Henry Burton, an American Prisoner of War, by beating him; and by fastening him head downward on a stretcher and forcing water into his nose.
    ^ The charge and specifications against Kita were: Charge: That the following member of the Imperial Japanese Army with his the known title: Takeo Kita, Sergeant Major, at the times and places set forth in the specifications hereto attached, and during a time of war between the United States.... and Japan, did violate the Laws and Customs of War. Specification 2: That between 1 April, 1943 and 31 August, 1944, at Fukoka Prisoner of War Branch Camp Number 3, Kyushu, Japan, the accused Takeo Kita, did, willfully and unlawfully, brutally mistreat and torture John Henry Burton, an American Prisoner of War, by beating him and by forcing water into his nose. Specification 4: That on or about 15 May, 1944, at Fukoka Prisoner of War Branch Camp Number 3, Kyushu, Japan, the accused Takeo Kita, did, willfully and unlawfully, brutally mistreat and torture Thomas B. Armitage, William O Cash and Munroe Dave Woodall, American Prisoners of War by beating them, forcing water into their mouths and noses, and by pressing lighted cigarettes against their bodies.
    ^ The charge and specifications against Nakamura were less specifically related to water torture per se, but still dealt with forced dunking: Charge: That the following member of the Imperial Japanese Army, with his then known title, Hideji Nakamura, at the times and places set forth in the specifications hereto attached, and during a time of war between the United States of America, its Allies and Dependencies, and Japan, did violate the Laws and Customs of War. None of the specifications were on water torture per se, but specifications 2 and 9 refer to forcing prisoners into a tank of water, 2 is 5 unknown pows, 9 is throwing American POW James E Martin into a tank of water. The testimony discussed infra ties those specifications into water torture.
    Quote Originally Posted by trouble13 View Post
    If you wanna know why Trumpsters are ignoring you its for the same reason you ignored the KKKs complaints about Obama.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moderate Right View Post
    When it comes down to it, all facts are cherry picked.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    He didn't say it didn't make sense. He said it is complete nonsense.

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    Re: Osama Bin Laden Raid Wasn't Based On CIA Torture Interrogations, Senators Say

    Quote Originally Posted by Gimmesometruth View Post
    Waterboarding is Illegal - Washington University Law Review

    It was also found to be a violation of Civil Rights in United States v. Lee, 744 F.2d 1124 (5th Cir. 1984).
    That's a darn sight better argument than using a statement from McCain as evidence.
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

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    Re: Osama Bin Laden Raid Wasn't Based On CIA Torture Interrogations, Senators Say

    Quote Originally Posted by Gimmesometruth View Post
    A little more on the Japanese convictions...
    This doesn't conflict with anything I've said.
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

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    Re: Osama Bin Laden Raid Wasn't Based On CIA Torture Interrogations, Senators Say

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    That's a darn sight better argument than using a statement from McCain as evidence.
    So then, do you agree that under US law, waterboarding is an illegal act?
    Quote Originally Posted by trouble13 View Post
    If you wanna know why Trumpsters are ignoring you its for the same reason you ignored the KKKs complaints about Obama.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moderate Right View Post
    When it comes down to it, all facts are cherry picked.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    He didn't say it didn't make sense. He said it is complete nonsense.

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    Re: Osama Bin Laden Raid Wasn't Based On CIA Torture Interrogations, Senators Say

    Quote Originally Posted by Gimmesometruth View Post
    So then, do you agree that under US law, waterboarding is an illegal act?
    Didn't say it was or wasn't. In order to determine it, the actual facts (not just the label "waterboarding") must be put up against the relevant law.

    Myself, I have a hard time seeing where what actually occurred inflicts "severe pain or suffering." Others disagree. That's why there are 12 on a jury.
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

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    Re: Osama Bin Laden Raid Wasn't Based On CIA Torture Interrogations, Senators Say

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    Didn't say it was or wasn't.
    Really? Because you just got done raking me over the coals over your interpretation, and now when you question me on it being illegal, you were not questioning the illegality of it? The basis of your question was that it was not illegal.

    In order to determine it, the actual facts (not just the label "waterboarding") must be put up against the relevant law.
    I have already cited the laws, there is no doubt that the act is illegal under US law. Again, you refuse to accept that it is an illegal act and now want to parse it by going off on another flight of fancy where you have to "examine it on a case by case basis". I wasn't asking you to examine any case, to determine what the specifics of any theoretical case was, I am asking you the straight up question: "Do you understand the waterboarding is an illegal act under US law"?
    Quote Originally Posted by trouble13 View Post
    If you wanna know why Trumpsters are ignoring you its for the same reason you ignored the KKKs complaints about Obama.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moderate Right View Post
    When it comes down to it, all facts are cherry picked.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    He didn't say it didn't make sense. He said it is complete nonsense.

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    Re: Osama Bin Laden Raid Wasn't Based On CIA Torture Interrogations, Senators Say

    Quote Originally Posted by Gimmesometruth View Post
    Really? Because you just got done raking me over the coals over your interpretation, and now when you question me on it being illegal, you were not questioning the illegality of it? The basis of your question was that it was not illegal.
    I asked you if it was. It doesn't mean I took a position on it.


    I have already cited the laws, there is no doubt that the act is illegal under US law. Again, you refuse to accept that it is an illegal act and now want to parse it by going off on another flight of fancy where you have to "examine it on a case by case basis". I wasn't asking you to examine any case, to determine what the specifics of any theoretical case was, I am asking you the straight up question: "Do you understand the waterboarding is an illegal act under US law"?
    No, you asked me if I agreed it was illegal.

    I told you what needs to happen in order to determine that, and it is aboslutely NOT "hypothetical." Does the due process of law and the court system mean nothing to you? Apparently not. So much for being some kind of stalwart defender of the law. You appear to want to conflict on slogans, not fact.

    And I told you which part of the relevant law I had "doubts" over, and it's a reasonable position to take. Now, truth be told, I knew while I was typing it you'd never be able to handle the subtlety of the point, and surprise surprise, you couldn't.
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

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    Re: Osama Bin Laden Raid Wasn't Based On CIA Torture Interrogations, Senators Say

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    I asked you if it was. It doesn't mean I took a position on it.
    Looks like you are trying to take some position, but it appears to be very awkward.




    No, you asked me if I agreed it was illegal.

    I told you what needs to happen in order to determine that, and it is aboslutely NOT "hypothetical." Does the due process of law and the court system mean nothing to you? Apparently not. So much for being some kind of stalwart defender of the law. You appear to want to conflict on slogans, not fact.

    And I told you which part of the relevant law I had "doubts" over, and it's a reasonable position to take. Now, truth be told, I knew while I was typing it you'd never be able to handle the subtlety of the point, and surprise surprise, you couldn't.
    Again, I am not asking you to examine a case or example. I am asking you, do you agree that under US law, waterboarding is illegal?

    Of course in a court, it would be determined if the act committed was or was not waterboarding, but once that is determined the law takes over.

    You continue to avoid by arguing over the application, I am not talking about any specific application, or case. If I asked you whether theft of property is illegal, would you have the same trouble in responding?

    And just to note, this is again part of your MO, you just can't be reasonable.
    Last edited by Gimmesometruth; 05-08-12 at 07:02 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by trouble13 View Post
    If you wanna know why Trumpsters are ignoring you its for the same reason you ignored the KKKs complaints about Obama.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moderate Right View Post
    When it comes down to it, all facts are cherry picked.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    He didn't say it didn't make sense. He said it is complete nonsense.

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    Re: Osama Bin Laden Raid Wasn't Based On CIA Torture Interrogations, Senators Say

    Quote Originally Posted by Gimmesometruth View Post
    Looks like you are trying to take some position, but it appears to be very awkward.
    Dude. I asked you back up your assertion. This does not require me to take any position.


    Again, I am not asking you to examine a case or example. I am asking you, do you agree that under US law, waterboarding is illegal?
    Dude. Look.

    In order to determine whether or not something is illegal, you have to examine it. Why is this so hard to understand?

    You continue to avoid by arguing over the application, I am not talking about any specific application, or case. If I asked you whether theft of property is illegal, would you have the same trouble in responding?
    Considering "theft" has a legal definition, and "waterboarding" does not, this is a very poor analogy.

    But hey, if you want an answer to the literal question, "is waterboarding illegal under US law," without examining any facts, then the answer is a definitive "no." Because "waterboarding" is not mentioned IN US law.

    I have no doubt that you don't understand what I'm getting at here, but hey. It takes all kinds.


    And just to note, this is again part of your MO, you just can't be reasonable.
    You're asking poor questions and making silly demands, and you can't even keep track of what you say, not only from post to post, but even within the same post, at times.
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

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