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Thread: Osama Bin Laden Raid Wasn't Based On CIA Torture Interrogations, Senators Say

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    Re: Osama Bin Laden Raid Wasn't Based On CIA Torture Interrogations, Senators Say

    Quote Originally Posted by Gimmesometruth View Post
    That was never the claim, no one said that.
    Check the post I was responding to; yes he did.

    Check your own post quoting McCain -- yes he did, and yes you did.

    Among the charges that those war criminals were charged with was waterboarding. Beyond that, there have been convictions in military courts and US courts for the use of waterboarding. It is still an illegal act in US law. That is the point, and your continued attempts to distract from that fact are meaningless.
    Oh, NOW who's trying to "distract" and change the subject? What I said was historically accurate, and I showed it. You lose. QED.
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    Re: Osama Bin Laden Raid Wasn't Based On CIA Torture Interrogations, Senators Say

    Quote Originally Posted by iliveonramen View Post
    I guess I misintepreted what you were saying. It seemed as if you were attacking the idea of compelling state interests.


    Well the left is a spectrum...so what exactly are some specifics on the left. Better yet what's something that is from the left that you object to that has been in front of the supreme court and passed based using the mentality "the ends justifies the means".
    Of course it's a spectrum, which is why I referred to it "in general."

    As for an example, the great expanse of governmental power under the Commerce Clause.
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    Re: Osama Bin Laden Raid Wasn't Based On CIA Torture Interrogations, Senators Say

    Quote Originally Posted by danarhea View Post
    I agree with that, and let me add that Neoconservatism is in itself a leftist concept. One of the two pillars of Neoconservatism, Irving Kristol, was a card carrying member of the Communist Party. The other pillar of Neoconservatism, Leo Strauss, was the mouthpiece for a philosophy called "Noble Lies". This concept, which began with Plato, and supported by Machiavelli, Karl Marx, and even Adolf Hitler, stated that, in order to control a populace on certain issues, you must lie to them, since the issues in question are "noble". This concept was used extensively by the Neocons in the runup to the Iraq war.
    I see nothing to disagree with here.
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    Re: Osama Bin Laden Raid Wasn't Based On CIA Torture Interrogations, Senators Say

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    Check the post I was responding to; yes he did.

    Check your own post quoting McCain -- yes he did, and yes you did.
    No one, including MSgt, McCain or myself said "solely", only you did.



    Oh, NOW who's trying to "distract" and change the subject?
    Um, you are, you are avoiding the main point by creating straw nitpick points, it is your MO throughout this thread.

    What I said was historically accurate, and I showed it. You lose. QED.
    Yes, you answered your own question while avoiding the point. Well done.
    Last edited by Gimmesometruth; 05-08-12 at 03:22 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by trouble13 View Post
    If you wanna know why Trumpsters are ignoring you its for the same reason you ignored the KKKs complaints about Obama.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moderate Right View Post
    When it comes down to it, all facts are cherry picked.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    He didn't say it didn't make sense. He said it is complete nonsense.

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    Re: Osama Bin Laden Raid Wasn't Based On CIA Torture Interrogations, Senators Say

    As for an example, the great expanse of governmental power under the Commerce Clause.
    I think there's a good argument that Commerce has expanded and become more complex.
    “Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone.” John Maynard Keynes

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    Re: Osama Bin Laden Raid Wasn't Based On CIA Torture Interrogations, Senators Say

    Quote Originally Posted by Gimmesometruth View Post
    No one, including MSgt, McCain or myself said "solely", only you did.
    When you say someone was "hanged for waterboarding," you absolutely imply it was the waterboarding which brought about the sentence.

    It's exactly like saying someone was executed for "burglary," when what they did was burgle AND slaughter the whole family in the house.


    Um, you are, you are avoiding the main point by creating straw nitpick points, it is your MO throughout this thread.
    Uh, no. They are not "straw nitpick points," they are exactly what I said -- legally and historically accurate.

    Yes, you answered your own question while avoiding the point. Well done.


    I "avoided" nothing. It's you who lost on the point and are now scrambling to find some other avenue of attack.
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

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    Re: Osama Bin Laden Raid Wasn't Based On CIA Torture Interrogations, Senators Say

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    When you say someone was "hanged for waterboarding," you absolutely imply it was the waterboarding which brought about the sentence.
    I'll write this slowly.....no one said it was "solely", that is still what you claimed. You made an assumption, and you are still avoiding the main point, waterboarding under US law is illegal. The whole point of bringing up Japanese waterboarding by McCain was to show this, that was why MSgt brought it up. It is an illegal act.


    I "avoided" nothing. It's you who lost on the point and are now scrambling to find some other avenue of attack.
    Like I said, you need these distractions to derail. The topic is not whether waterboarding is a capital offense, the topic is whether an illegal technique was successful in finding UBL.

    It wasn't, and your attempts to avoid the main point is just a waste of time.
    Quote Originally Posted by trouble13 View Post
    If you wanna know why Trumpsters are ignoring you its for the same reason you ignored the KKKs complaints about Obama.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moderate Right View Post
    When it comes down to it, all facts are cherry picked.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    He didn't say it didn't make sense. He said it is complete nonsense.

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    Re: Osama Bin Laden Raid Wasn't Based On CIA Torture Interrogations, Senators Say

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    I see nothing to disagree with here.
    I do, because it demonstrates a complete lack of understanding of neoconservatism, no matter how many times I have tried to tell Dan correctly over the years.

    1) Neoconservatism is partly a left-wing concept, and partly a liberal one, and recently a conservative one. Not exclusively leftist.
    2) Irving Kristol was a member of neoconservatism, but not necessarily a pillar of how to understand it. The most famous neoconservative, to be sure, but using him as the neoconservative to be looked at is idiotic at best. Not only is it difficult to figure out where he stood on the recent Iraq War, but you are carrying his intellectual and professional experiences to that of a diverse group of people. A pillar would be what form of neoconservatism it was: domestic, foreign policy from the 1960s-1980s, or foreign policy from the 1990s-2000s.
    3) Irving Kristol was not a "card-carrying member of the Communist Party." Had Dan ever read or watched interviews with many of that young group of New York Intellectuals he would have quickly realized it was the Trostkyists who continuously were ignored by the Communist party, because the young men of the party were forbidden to talk to anyone who was not a Stalinist. They were the enemies of the Communist Party, not friends, let alone the same.
    4) Leo Strauss' students and informal followers represents one wing out of many of the neoconservative persuasion.
    5) Why did you pick Irving Kristol and Leo Struass? Why not Irving Kristol and Norman Podhoretz? Why not Irving Kristol and Robert Kagan? Leo Strauss is to neoconservatism as Sidney Hook, Lionel Trilling, and Henry Scoop Jackson are to Neoconservatism.
    6) That is a highly debatable position of Leo Strauss's work that he promoted the "noble lie," especially in the manner you perceive. Further, I find it odd you are wrapping Hitler with a guy that left Germany because he was Jewish during Hitler's reign and wrote at length about the Nazi menace.
    7) You falsely connect Leo Strauss to the neoconservative impulse for the war in Iraq. Not only does it presume that they purposely lied, rather than cherry picked information to suit their preconceived notions for Saddam's guilt, you also presume Leo Strauss had a hold on the neoconservative movement as a whole, and further, that his ideas were actually used to conduct the war. You ignore the work of Fukuyama who suggested that if anything, neoconservatives had not listened to Strauss, who was arguably highly skeptical of such enterprises to begin with.
    Last edited by Fiddytree; 05-08-12 at 04:30 PM.
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    Re: Osama Bin Laden Raid Wasn't Based On CIA Torture Interrogations, Senators Say

    Quote Originally Posted by Gimmesometruth View Post
    I'll write this slowly.....no one said it was "solely", that is still what you claimed.


    Of course you said it. MSgt said it explicitly. You believed it, and you said it, and tried to prove it. You're only backpedaling now.


    You made an assumption
    Funny, you said posted to "prove" the historical inaccuracy of my post. You failed, and you didn't, then, post to show it was "illegal" under US law.

    This is plain as day. You keep changing what you say you're doing, so why should I believe your descriptions now?


    and you are still avoiding the main point, waterboarding under US law is illegal.
    Oh, really? Here I thought the "main point" of the thread was that the OBL raid wasn't based on intel gathered from it. Whatever imaginary "main point" you're trying to push now is irrelevant.

    The whole point of bringing up Japanese waterboarding by McCain was to show this
    That may be why McCain brought it up, but it's not why YOU brought up McCain. It was to show that the Japanese were "executed" for waterboarding


    MSgt brought it up.



    It's still factual error to say the Japanese were executed for it.


    It is an illegal act.
    Is it? Define "waterboarding" exactly, and cite the elements of the US code under which it falls, and then apply the specific facts of what actually happened and show this. McCain simply saying the Japanese were executed for it doesn't do any of this.



    [quote]Like I said, you need these distractions to derail.[quote]

    You keep saying this; it continues not to be true.

    The topic is not whether waterboarding is a capital offense, the topic is whether an illegal technique was successful in finding UBL.
    Funny; just above you said the "main point" was that's it's illegal, and nothing about OBL.

    Is it surprising that you can't follow my points if you can't even keep track of your own?


    It wasn't, and your attempts to avoid the main point is just a waste of time.
    You keep disagreeing with yourself about what the "main point" is.
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

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    Re: Osama Bin Laden Raid Wasn't Based On CIA Torture Interrogations, Senators Say

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    I do, because it demonstrates a complete lack of understanding of neoconservatism, no matter how many times I have tried to tell Dan correctly over the years.

    1) Neoconservatism is partly a left-wing concept, and partly a liberal one, and recently a conservative one. Not exclusively leftist.
    2) Irving Kristol was a member of neoconservatism, but not necessarily a pillar of how to understand it. The most famous neoconservative, to be sure, but using him as the neoconservative to be looked at is idiotic at best. Not only is it difficult to figure out where he stood on the recent Iraq War, but you are carrying his intellectual and professional experiences to that of a diverse group of people. A pillar would be what form of neoconservatism it was: domestic, foreign policy from the 1960s-1980s, or foreign policy from the 1990s-2000s.
    3) Irving Kristol was not a "card-carrying member of the Communist Party." Had Dan ever read or watched interviews with many of that young group of New York Intellectuals he would have quickly realized it was the Trostkyists who continuously were ignored by the Communist party, because the young men of the party were forbidden to talk to anyone who was not a Stalinist. They were the enemies of the Communist Party, not friends, let alone the same.
    4) Leo Strauss' students and informal followers represents one wing out of many of the neoconservative persuasion.
    5) Why did you pick Irving Kristol and Leo Struass? Why not Irving Kristol and Norman Podhoretz? Why not Irving Kristol and Robert Kagan? Leo Strauss is to neoconservatism as Sidney Hook, Lionel Trilling, and Henry Scoop Jackson are to Neoconservatism.
    6) That is a highly debatable position of Leo Strauss's work that he promoted the "noble lie," especially in the manner you perceive. Further, I find it odd you are wrapping Hitler with a guy that left Germany because he was Jewish during Hitler's reign and wrote at length about the Nazi menace.
    7) You falsely connect Leo Strauss to the neoconservative impulse for the war in Iraq. Not only does it presume that they purposely lied, rather than cherry picked information to suit their preconceived notions for Saddam's guilt, you also presume Leo Strauss had a hold on the neoconservative movement as a whole, and further, that his ideas were actually used to conduct the war. You ignore the work of Fukuyama who suggested that if anything, neoconservatives had not listened to Strauss, who was arguably highly skeptical of such enterprises to begin with.
    OK, *I* didn't do anything you're saying here. But on these points, fine; I shouldn't have agreed so quickly.
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

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