Page 6 of 12 FirstFirst ... 45678 ... LastLast
Results 51 to 60 of 118

Thread: Osama Bin Laden Raid Wasn't Based On CIA Torture Interrogations, Senators Say

  1. #51
    Sage
    Gimmesometruth's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    US Southwest
    Last Seen
    09-13-17 @ 10:22 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    22,405

    Re: Osama Bin Laden Raid Wasn't Based On CIA Torture Interrogations, Senators Say

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post


    IF you had any authority to demand anything from me . . .

    And IF I were to "get back to the topic" as you define it . . .

    It would not be "proof" of anything, one way or the other, so this is full of fail.
    Authority? LOL....it was a request, a challenge...and yes, it would prove to me that you can stay on topic.

    And which "error" was that?
    Really....you don't remember your comments on Japanese war crime punishments?

    Page 3, post 23, corrected in post 26.
    Quote Originally Posted by trouble13 View Post
    If you wanna know why Trumpsters are ignoring you its for the same reason you ignored the KKKs complaints about Obama.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moderate Right View Post
    When it comes down to it, all facts are cherry picked.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    He didn't say it didn't make sense. He said it is complete nonsense.

  2. #52
    Angry Former GOP Voter
    Fiddytree's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Last Seen
    Today @ 12:42 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Centrist
    Posts
    25,633
    Quote Originally Posted by Gimmesometruth View Post
    He wasn't "teaching" anything, it was a documentation of the methods of corrupt rule. It was a satire; "the general theme of accepting the aims of princes; such as glory, and indeed survival, can justify the use of immoral means to achieve those ends."

    Any regime can become corrupt enough to use such means, but the whole point is that the US is not existentially threatened to the point where we have to resort to such ideologies. This is not "24", we did not have to lower ourselves to the level of tyrants.
    How much of Machiavelli have you even read?
    Michael J Petrilli-"Is School Choice Enough?"-A response to the recent timidity of American conservatives toward education reform. https://nationalaffairs.com/publicat...-choice-enough

  3. #53
    Sage
    Gimmesometruth's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    US Southwest
    Last Seen
    09-13-17 @ 10:22 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    22,405

    Re: Osama Bin Laden Raid Wasn't Based On CIA Torture Interrogations, Senators Say

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    Um, a "compelling state interest" is pretty much an end justifying a means. And that's just one manifestation.
    BS. Compelling state interest is deontology, the ends justifying the means is consequentialism.
    Quote Originally Posted by trouble13 View Post
    If you wanna know why Trumpsters are ignoring you its for the same reason you ignored the KKKs complaints about Obama.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moderate Right View Post
    When it comes down to it, all facts are cherry picked.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    He didn't say it didn't make sense. He said it is complete nonsense.

  4. #54
    Filmmaker Lawyer Patriot
    Harshaw's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Last Seen
    Today @ 12:30 AM
    Lean
    Libertarian - Right
    Posts
    29,499

    Re: Osama Bin Laden Raid Wasn't Based On CIA Torture Interrogations, Senators Say

    Quote Originally Posted by Gimmesometruth View Post
    Authority? LOL....it was a request, a challenge...and yes, it would prove to me that you can stay on topic.
    No, it was a demand.


    Really....you don't remember your comments on Japanese war crime punishments?
    Of course I do.

    Page 3, post 23, corrected in post 26.
    An unsourced statement from McCain and a "truth-o-meter"? That's your authority?

    These are the guys who were hanged, and the baskets of crimes they were hanged for. Not ONE was hanged solely for "waterboarding," which is what I said IN that post #23.

    Six defendants were sentenced to death by hanging for war crimes, crimes against humanity and crimes against peace (Class A, Class B and Class C):

    General Kenji Doihara, Chief of the intelligence service in Manchukuo, later Air Force commander
    Baron Kōki Hirota, prime minister (later foreign minister)
    General Seishirō Itagaki, war minister
    General Heitarō Kimura, commander, Burma Expeditionary Force
    General Akira Mutō, commander, Philippines Expeditionary Force
    General Hideki Tōjō, commander, Kwantung Army (later prime minister)

    One defendant was sentenced to death by hanging for war crimes and crimes against humanity (Class B and Class C):

    General Iwane Matsui, commander, Shanghai Expeditionary Force and Central China Area Army
    International Military Tribunal for the Far East - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    You can check there to see what Class A, B, and C war crimes were.
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

  5. #55
    Filmmaker Lawyer Patriot
    Harshaw's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Last Seen
    Today @ 12:30 AM
    Lean
    Libertarian - Right
    Posts
    29,499

    Re: Osama Bin Laden Raid Wasn't Based On CIA Torture Interrogations, Senators Say

    Quote Originally Posted by Gimmesometruth View Post
    BS. Compelling state interest is deontology, the ends justifying the means is consequentialism.
    You have no idea what you're talking about.
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

  6. #56
    Pontificator
    iliveonramen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    On a Gravy Train with Biscuit Wheels
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 02:51 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Very Liberal
    Posts
    9,152

    Re: Osama Bin Laden Raid Wasn't Based On CIA Torture Interrogations, Senators Say

    Um, a "compelling state interest" is pretty much an end justifying a means. And that's just one manifestation.
    It's also used a lot in National Security matters. Compelling state interest is not a blase pass to do whatever you want.

    It's the standard which has to be used to limit protected rights under the consitution....like the 2nd amendment not allowing you to buy C4 explosives or losing your right to free speech when you yell fire in a movie theatre. Do you agree with both those applications of compelling state interests or do you think we need to pass an amendment to abridge your basic rights in those situations?

    How about the guy that leaked the Diplomatic cables? Does he enjoy freedom of the press privaliges or does "compelling state interest" mean that his right of speech is limited.

    When did I say anything about "originalism"? There's also textual literalness to consider, as well as judicial conservatism. Besides, I believe I was referring to leftism.
    Leftism is ambigious. I need to know what defination you're working from....for me it could mean civil rights and equality for you it could mean gulags. Just saying...you never know how people interpretate definitions on this website.

    Where did I say anything which disagreed with this?
    It may not of been your intention...but your post turning things towards an attack on the left seems like a diversion from the topic of the use of tortue by the Bush administration.
    “Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone.” John Maynard Keynes

  7. #57
    Filmmaker Lawyer Patriot
    Harshaw's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Last Seen
    Today @ 12:30 AM
    Lean
    Libertarian - Right
    Posts
    29,499

    Re: Osama Bin Laden Raid Wasn't Based On CIA Torture Interrogations, Senators Say

    Quote Originally Posted by iliveonramen View Post
    It's also used a lot in National Security matters. Compelling state interest is not a blase pass to do whatever you want.
    I agree.

    It's the standard which has to be used to limit protected rights under the consitution....like the 2nd amendment not allowing you to buy C4 explosives or losing your right to free speech when you yell fire in a movie theatre. Do you agree with both those applications of compelling state interests or do you think we need to pass an amendment to abridge your basic rights in those situations?

    How about the guy that leaked the Diplomatic cables? Does he enjoy freedom of the press privaliges or does "compelling state interest" mean that his right of speech is limited.
    I really don't know what you think you're arguing against here.


    Leftism is ambigious. I need to know what defination you're working from....for me it could mean civil rights and equality for you it could mean gulags. Just saying...you never know how people interpretate definitions on this website.
    Really? "Leftism" is that ambiguous? I don't really think it is.


    It may not of been your intention...but your post turning things towards an attack on the left seems like a diversion from the topic of the use of tortue by the Bush administration.
    Threads flow. It's not exactly a new thing.
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

  8. #58
    Sage
    Gimmesometruth's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    US Southwest
    Last Seen
    09-13-17 @ 10:22 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    22,405

    Re: Osama Bin Laden Raid Wasn't Based On CIA Torture Interrogations, Senators Say

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    Not ONE was hanged solely for "waterboarding," which is what I said IN that post #23.
    That was never the claim, no one said that. Among the charges that those war criminals were charged with was waterboarding. Beyond that, there have been convictions in military courts and US courts for the use of waterboarding. It is still an illegal act in US law. That is the point, and your continued attempts to distract from that fact are meaningless.
    Quote Originally Posted by trouble13 View Post
    If you wanna know why Trumpsters are ignoring you its for the same reason you ignored the KKKs complaints about Obama.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moderate Right View Post
    When it comes down to it, all facts are cherry picked.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    He didn't say it didn't make sense. He said it is complete nonsense.

  9. #59
    Slayer of the DP Newsbot
    danarhea's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Houston, TX
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 11:29 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    39,719

    Re: Osama Bin Laden Raid Wasn't Based On CIA Torture Interrogations, Senators Say

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    Doesn't change the fact that much of leftism is premised on the end justifying the means, particularly when it comes to Constitutional justification.
    I agree with that, and let me add that Neoconservatism is in itself a leftist concept. One of the two pillars of Neoconservatism, Irving Kristol, was a card carrying member of the Communist Party. The other pillar of Neoconservatism, Leo Strauss, was the mouthpiece for a philosophy called "Noble Lies". This concept, which began with Plato, and supported by Machiavelli, Karl Marx, and even Adolf Hitler, stated that, in order to control a populace on certain issues, you must lie to them, since the issues in question are "noble". This concept was used extensively by the Neocons in the runup to the Iraq war.
    Last edited by danarhea; 05-08-12 at 03:07 PM.
    The ghost of Jack Kevorkian for President's Physician: 2016

  10. #60
    Pontificator
    iliveonramen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    On a Gravy Train with Biscuit Wheels
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 02:51 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Very Liberal
    Posts
    9,152

    Re: Osama Bin Laden Raid Wasn't Based On CIA Torture Interrogations, Senators Say

    I really don't know what you think you're arguing against here.
    I guess I misintepreted what you were saying. It seemed as if you were attacking the idea of compelling state interests.

    Really? "Leftism" is that ambiguous? I don't really think it is.
    Well the left is a spectrum...so what exactly are some specifics on the left. Better yet what's something that is from the left that you object to that has been in front of the supreme court and passed based using the mentality "the ends justifies the means".
    “Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone.” John Maynard Keynes

Page 6 of 12 FirstFirst ... 45678 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •