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Thread: Osama Bin Laden Raid Wasn't Based On CIA Torture Interrogations, Senators Say

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    Re: Osama Bin Laden Raid Wasn't Based On CIA Torture Interrogations, Senators Say

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    Doesn't change the fact that much of leftism is premised on the end justifying the means, particularly when it comes to Constitutional justification.
    But the point is, we are talking about rightwingers actually justifying the actions at hand, real events, not events (real or imagined) somewhere else.

    You are trying to distract from the topic.
    Quote Originally Posted by trouble13 View Post
    If you wanna know why Trumpsters are ignoring you its for the same reason you ignored the KKKs complaints about Obama.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moderate Right View Post
    When it comes down to it, all facts are cherry picked.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    He didn't say it didn't make sense. He said it is complete nonsense.

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    Re: Osama Bin Laden Raid Wasn't Based On CIA Torture Interrogations, Senators Say

    Quote Originally Posted by Gimmesometruth View Post
    But the point is, we are talking about rightwingers actually justifying the actions at hand, real events, not events (real or imagined) somewhere else.

    You are trying to distract from the topic.
    Nope. Just playing off what others said.

    If my views were prevalent, none of this would be an issue.
    It's not "tolerance" if you already approve of what you purport to "tolerate."

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    Re: Osama Bin Laden Raid Wasn't Based On CIA Torture Interrogations, Senators Say

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    Doesn't change the fact that much of leftism is premised on the end justifying the means, particularly when it comes to Constitutional justification.
    If you find where a Judge used that as justfication for his decision by all means provide it.

    Your just sticking non-orgionalist thinking into a convenient box to demonize it.

    The fact is...torture is a classic example of ends justifies the means. It was broadly supported on the right. The justification was the ends justifies the means.
    “People of the same trade seldom meet together, even for merriment and diversion, but the conversation ends in a conspiracy against the public, or in some contrivance to raise prices.”
    *Adam Smith*

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    Re: Osama Bin Laden Raid Wasn't Based On CIA Torture Interrogations, Senators Say

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    Nope. Just playing off what others said.

    If my views were prevalent, none of this would be an issue.
    Prove to me that you are not distracting by actually getting back to the topic.

    You can also prove to me that you are truly interested in history by acknowledging your error on the Japanese punishments.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    Believer in historical fact, yes.
    Last edited by Gimmesometruth; 05-08-12 at 01:19 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by trouble13 View Post
    If you wanna know why Trumpsters are ignoring you its for the same reason you ignored the KKKs complaints about Obama.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moderate Right View Post
    When it comes down to it, all facts are cherry picked.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    He didn't say it didn't make sense. He said it is complete nonsense.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by danarhea View Post
    The ends justifying the means was a main premise of both Communism and Neoconservatism.
    Not really. A careful study of Machiavelli showed that while the concept was not foreign to Machiavelli, he taught us that that certain means are better in accomplishing the same ends.
    A message to both the Left and the Right. Ari Ne'eman-"People with disabilities deserve better than to be used as props in the country’s ongoing — and so far stalemated — arguments over gun control." https://www.vox.com/the-big-idea/201...-obama-liberty

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    Re: Osama Bin Laden Raid Wasn't Based On CIA Torture Interrogations, Senators Say

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Not really. A careful study of Machiavelli showed that while the concept was not foreign to Machiavelli, he taught us that that certain means are better in accomplishing the same ends.
    The Prince was a study on the dark side of rule, it is the antithesis of the Constitution.
    Quote Originally Posted by trouble13 View Post
    If you wanna know why Trumpsters are ignoring you its for the same reason you ignored the KKKs complaints about Obama.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moderate Right View Post
    When it comes down to it, all facts are cherry picked.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    He didn't say it didn't make sense. He said it is complete nonsense.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gimmesometruth View Post
    The Prince was a study on the dark side of rule, it is the antithesis of the Constitution.
    If you read it that way. Read his other works as well and you'll see why even further.
    A message to both the Left and the Right. Ari Ne'eman-"People with disabilities deserve better than to be used as props in the country’s ongoing — and so far stalemated — arguments over gun control." https://www.vox.com/the-big-idea/201...-obama-liberty

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    Re: Osama Bin Laden Raid Wasn't Based On CIA Torture Interrogations, Senators Say

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    If you read it that way. Read his other works as well and you'll see why even further.
    He wasn't "teaching" anything, it was a documentation of the methods of corrupt rule. It was a satire; "the general theme of accepting the aims of princes; such as glory, and indeed survival, can justify the use of immoral means to achieve those ends."

    Any regime can become corrupt enough to use such means, but the whole point is that the US is not existentially threatened to the point where we have to resort to such ideologies. This is not "24", we did not have to lower ourselves to the level of tyrants.
    Quote Originally Posted by trouble13 View Post
    If you wanna know why Trumpsters are ignoring you its for the same reason you ignored the KKKs complaints about Obama.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moderate Right View Post
    When it comes down to it, all facts are cherry picked.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    He didn't say it didn't make sense. He said it is complete nonsense.

  9. #49
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    Re: Osama Bin Laden Raid Wasn't Based On CIA Torture Interrogations, Senators Say

    Quote Originally Posted by Gimmesometruth View Post
    Prove to me that you are not distracting by actually getting back to the topic.


    IF you had any authority to demand anything from me . . .

    And IF I were to "get back to the topic" as you define it . . .

    It would not be "proof" of anything, one way or the other, so this is full of fail.


    You can also prove to me that you are truly interested in history by acknowledging your error on the Japanese punishments.
    And which "error" was that?
    It's not "tolerance" if you already approve of what you purport to "tolerate."

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    Re: Osama Bin Laden Raid Wasn't Based On CIA Torture Interrogations, Senators Say

    Quote Originally Posted by iliveonramen View Post
    If you find where a Judge used that as justfication for his decision by all means provide it.
    Um, a "compelling state interest" is pretty much an end justifying a means. And that's just one manifestation.

    Your just sticking non-orgionalist thinking into a convenient box to demonize it.
    When did I say anything about "originalism"? There's also textual literalness to consider, as well as judicial conservatism. Besides, I believe I was referring to leftism.

    The fact is...torture is a classic example of ends justifies the means. It was broadly supported on the right. The justification was the ends justifies the means.
    Where did I say anything which disagreed with this?
    It's not "tolerance" if you already approve of what you purport to "tolerate."

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