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Thread: Anti-Bullying Speaker Curses Christian Teens[W:165; 667]

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    Re: Anti-Bullying Speaker Curses Christian Teens[W:165; 667]

    Quote Originally Posted by Gimmesometruth View Post
    (1) Logic is not based on world views, it is a matter of rational explanation.

    (2) You keep bring up this totally fabricated argument, no one is debating their "right", and they can be insulted for doing it when it is not rational. Your "fairness" is a false equivalence.
    (1) Religion isn't logical, because it requires belief. Not everything in our existence is necessitates logic. There doesn't need to be a "logical explanation" for why a walkout should happen, as if that justifies Dan's crude behavior. How about don't be an ass to people when giving a speech? Do that instead of trying little semantic ways to justify his base behavior.

    (2) Ignoring your game of semantics, I think any students have the right to walk out when offended while also not having to be insulted for doing so.

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    Re: Anti-Bullying Speaker Curses Christian Teens[W:165; 667]

    Quote Originally Posted by Wake View Post
    (1) Believing my religion to be true, I'm disinclined to consider it fallible.
    You proved my point.

    (2) That is a bit different. Some "Christian" bullies bullying homosexual students is far different from the way more devout Islamists treat homosexuals. That and then you have the radical Islamists, who kill them. I don't feel preaching/opining that homosexualityh is a Biblical sin is the persecution of homosexuals; in America every person has the right to give voice to their beliefs. If there were some "Christians" who actively called for the jailing/killing/bullying of homosexuals I'd be fighting against it.
    The only difference is the CURRENT mode of punishment, christians have killed homosexuals in the name of god and the Bible in the past, the condemnation used still exists, it is continually cited. You cannot say you would fight against the persecution by christians of gays who use the Bible as justification and still support the text that encourages that action. Again, what stops you is this belief in the infallibility in the text.

    (3) That is a nice way of stating your belief. Here's my nice way of stating my belief: the agenda of saving people from an eternity in Hell.
    LOL....that is NOT the agenda of homosexuals that you implied you knew. That is YOUR "agenda". You can't keep your context straight. How embarrassing.
    Quote Originally Posted by trouble13 View Post
    If you wanna know why Trumpsters are ignoring you its for the same reason you ignored the KKKs complaints about Obama.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moderate Right View Post
    When it comes down to it, all facts are cherry picked.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    He didn't say it didn't make sense. He said it is complete nonsense.

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    Re: Anti-Bullying Speaker Curses Christian Teens[W:165; 667]

    Quote Originally Posted by Wake View Post
    (1) Religion isn't logical, because it requires belief. Not everything in our existence is necessitates logic. There doesn't need to be a "logical explanation" for why a walkout should happen, as if that justifies Dan's crude behavior. How about don't be an ass to people when giving a speech? Do that instead of trying little semantic ways to justify his base behavior.
    Geez, you cannot keep track of what the point was, you are totally confused.

    The point was that you and Billy CANNOT produce a logical "shoe on the other foot" statement from a "christian" speaker that would be equal to what Savage said to cause the walk out. I already showed that many times.

    Ignoring your game of semantics, I think any students have the right to walk out when offended while also not having to be insulted for doing so.
    I am not playing semantics, there has NEVER been a debate about the "rights" of the "offended" students. Their action can be insulted if their actions are irrational, and Savage has that right.
    Quote Originally Posted by trouble13 View Post
    If you wanna know why Trumpsters are ignoring you its for the same reason you ignored the KKKs complaints about Obama.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moderate Right View Post
    When it comes down to it, all facts are cherry picked.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    He didn't say it didn't make sense. He said it is complete nonsense.

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    Re: Anti-Bullying Speaker Curses Christian Teens[W:165; 667]

    Quote Originally Posted by Wake View Post
    I never said there weren't homosexual students that were bullied. Bullies need to be placed in jail; my beliefs are Draconian when it comes to punishing them. It is not Christian to bully people.
    That's fine, and I agree with you.

    Unfortunately, you are not in charge of the numerous Christian groups that are actively opposing anti-bullying work in schools. Many of your faith do feel that bullying is Christian. More accurately, they feel anti-bullying legislation promotes homosexuality, or at the very east, doesn't take a stand (their stand) against homosexuality. You have to come to terms with the fact that a large segment of society, conservative religious groups, are actively attacking a turning social tide of tolerance of gays. It makes people of faith look ridiculous, and gives guys like Dan Savage somewhat-legit ammo against them.

    Dan Savage has been a gay activist for years, and he's most likely encountered numerous anti-gay Christian groups in his years. As one who has been interested in such topics, I can absolutely see where he's coming from. At every level of society, there are shrill religious people who oppose something on their own personal moral grounds and demand that others conform to it. They are idiots, and frankly are given far too much leeway by hiding behind the otherwise respected idea of faith.

    One can give their opinion that homosexuality is a sin, yet do so in a way as to not bully others. I also don't think these instances of homosexuals being bullied by some "Christian" bullies should be used on an attack against Christianity; to me it seems like some are using these tragedies to further their own agenda.
    First off, it's funny how you put Christians in quotations. I'm assuming that means you don't feel people who act like that can call themselves Christians?

    Second, of course it's possible that events are spun to further a cause. You have seen American media before, yes? It doesn't make what Mr. Savage said any less inherently true; a segment of the American religious population is actively working to keep homosexuals from being fully accepted in society. When a religious group takes issue with anti-bullying rules because they think that not explicitly condemning homosexuality is equal to actively promoting it, the sad fact is you are now dealing with backwards morons and frankly, you have to basically run them over to get anywhere.

    Whether you are gay or not, you shouldn't be bullied, you do have the right to civilly leave, and I fell you shouldn't be insulted for doing so. Also, whether a gay activist or a Christian activist, I don't think you should act like an ass when trying to spread your message.
    Maybe Savage could have been more respectable in tone, especially in front of high school students. I suppose my issue with this is how he showed younger people that in respectable debate, name calling and mocking is a tactic to use. If he had said this to me in private, I would have high-fived him.

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    Re: Anti-Bullying Speaker Curses Christian Teens[W:165; 667]

    Quote Originally Posted by Gimmesometruth View Post
    It is not the same, Billy, but then maybe the problem is that you don't know the difference between an inanimate object (a book) and an animated one (a person).


    Well now Gimmie this sounds like a personal problem for you. Good luck.

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    Re: Anti-Bullying Speaker Curses Christian Teens[W:165; 667]

    Quote Originally Posted by Wake View Post
    (1) One point I've been making in this discussion is that all kinds of students should have the right to leave civilly without being castigated.

    (2) We're probably not going to agree on this. My religion is very important to me, and you see it as merely a book. I also feel you're distorting the points I'm trying to convey, one of the main ones being in point #1. When I refer to "the show on the other foot," I'm referring to those people on one side of the spectrum who view homosexuality as a sin, and those people on the other who don't view it as a sin and support the concept of homosexuality. Also, I don't think there is such a thing as a gay Christian, just like I don't think there are adulterous Christians; the Bible explicitly mentions those things as sin and warns Christians of it. There is a difference, though, if a Christian has had gay temptations or was gay, but is trying his/her best to change and follow the Word of God. Those are my thoughts on the matter.
    Ah yes, the "no True Scotsman" argument - often seen on the xian side these days.

    OK, it is seen on any side of any argument where those on one side can only agree with certain folks if they have a common enemy, as soon as that first opponent is gone/dead/defeated, the former allies turn on each other.
    “And I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in shewing that religion & Govt will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together.”
    ~ James Madison, letter to Edward Livingston, July 10, 1822

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    Re: Anti-Bullying Speaker Curses Christian Teens[W:165; 667]

    Wake wrote:
    we have very different views on this issue and like oil and water our beliefs cannot really mix. You feel God created homosexuality and that it is alright, I feel it is a sin and that it is mentioned as such in the Bible both OT and NT.
    This is the central point of Dan Savage's speech, how can one who claims to follow the strictures found in the Bible on condemning homosexuality be anything but a hypocrite when they don't follow the other laws and commands in that same text? How do you make the choice on which commands you follow and which ones you ignore?
    “And I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in shewing that religion & Govt will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together.”
    ~ James Madison, letter to Edward Livingston, July 10, 1822

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    Re: Anti-Bullying Speaker Curses Christian Teens[W:165; 667]

    Quote Originally Posted by Somerville View Post
    Ah yes, the "no True Scotsman" argument - often seen on the xian side these days.

    OK, it is seen on any side of any argument where those on one side can only agree with certain folks if they have a common enemy, as soon as that first opponent is gone/dead/defeated, the former allies turn on each other.
    I don't think so.

    Not every person in a group is the same. That said, when following the Word of God you're to actually follow it rather than try and make exceptions. There are many "Christians" who, imo, aren't. That goes for "Christians" who have no problem routinely cheating, or those "Christians" who have no problem turning their church into a freaking business to rake in a lot of money.

    The NT states what it takes to be a Christian. They will always be some who consider themselves a part of that group who want it both ways. There are also those Christians who try their best to follow God's Word, but also struggle with their own weaknesses.

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    Re: Anti-Bullying Speaker Curses Christian Teens[W:165; 667]

    Quote Originally Posted by Somerville View Post
    Wake wrote:


    This is the central point of Dan Savage's speech, how can one who claims to follow the strictures found in the Bible on condemning homosexuality be anything but a hypocrite when they don't follow the other laws and commands in that same text? How do you make the choice on which commands you follow and which ones you ignore?
    That point I will agree with Dan on. However, Dan was still being an asshole. Also, there are some verses in the NT that are virtually impossible to make happen in this day and age.

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    Re: Anti-Bullying Speaker Curses Christian Teens[W:165; 667]

    Quote Originally Posted by Somerville View Post
    Wake wrote:


    This is the central point of Dan Savage's speech, how can one who claims to follow the strictures found in the Bible on condemning homosexuality be anything but a hypocrite when they don't follow the other laws and commands in that same text? How do you make the choice on which commands you follow and which ones you ignore?
    Their counter is that they are excused from following the OT, but when asked about the 10 commandments, they go silent.

    Cognitive dissonance.
    Quote Originally Posted by trouble13 View Post
    If you wanna know why Trumpsters are ignoring you its for the same reason you ignored the KKKs complaints about Obama.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moderate Right View Post
    When it comes down to it, all facts are cherry picked.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    He didn't say it didn't make sense. He said it is complete nonsense.

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