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Thread: Teacher Claims She Was Fired From Catholic School For In Vitro Fertilization

  1. #131
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    Re: Teacher Claims She Was Fired From Catholic School For In Vitro Fertilization

    Quote Originally Posted by Superfly View Post
    Has the Church actually said her contract wasn't going to be renewed for having the procedure done? Or was it because she missed so much time to have the procedure done?
    The OP article includes the following;

    Diocese officials said in a statement issued to The Associated Press on Wednesday that the lawsuit challenges its rights as a religious institution "to make religious based decisions consistent with its religious standards on an impartial basis."
    Which suggests to me that they're admitting sacking her because IVF goes against their religious standards. They also seem to be taking the position that religious organisations should have the right to break the law if they want, a position I've questioned a couple of times but have yet heard any kind of moral justification for.

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    Re: Teacher Claims She Was Fired From Catholic School For In Vitro Fertilization

    Quote Originally Posted by Josie View Post
    The people are the church. Or... do you hate the building? That's weird.
    Do you feel that way about the priests - that when they molest children, every Catholics also molest those children since they are all "the Church"?

    I personally dislike the rules, the policies, the teachings and the people who set those things. There's a distinct difference between members and institutions, when the Catholic Church conducted the Inquisition, I believe that most Catholics are innocent of those atrocities, and some were victims themselves.
    Quote Originally Posted by Free_Radical View Post

    And I wasn't making an appeal to authority, I was making an appeal to the philosophical body of work of the founders, the worth and content of which should be well-known to anyone with a cursory understanding of basic history and philosophy.

    Brian

  3. #133
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    Re: Teacher Claims She Was Fired From Catholic School For In Vitro Fertilization

    Quote Originally Posted by Gimmesometruth View Post
    Again, all instructors cited in the previous court cases had contracts. The contract is only valid if the employer does not violate federal law. The case comes down to "ministerial exception", and again, the diocese will have to show that Herx was a "minister", showing that her class included substantial religious teaching. I don't know how they can do that with the course that she taught, not to mention that she was not catholic, so how she could be required to teach church doctrine is a big sticking point.
    The teacher fired had a contract; I guarantee that. You really think her contract violated any law? Not a snowballs chance in Hell. The teacher violated the tenets of the contract according to the school, which acknowledged by the legal article I posted earlier, is not in her favor. Sorry but I'm afraid its game over for her whether you believe it or not.
    Last edited by Μολὼν λαβέ; 04-28-12 at 08:50 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    Generalizations are stupid.
    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Steel View Post
    The Second Amendment has nothing to do with guns.

  4. #134
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    Re: Teacher Claims She Was Fired From Catholic School For In Vitro Fertilization

    Quote Originally Posted by Wake View Post
    I would think that wraps this case up rather well. Seriously, she signed a contract.
    Which doesn't matter if the contract violates the Law, it's amazing how many people seem to not understand this concept in this thread when it should be common knowledge:



    Contract Law - An Introduction

    Typically, in order to be enforceable, a contract must involve the following elements:

    A "Meeting of the Minds" (Mutual Consent)

    The parties to the contract have a mutual understanding of what the contract covers. For example, in a contract for the sale of a "mustang", the buyer thinks he will obtain a car and the seller believes he is contracting to sell a horse, there is no meeting of the minds and the contract will likely be held unenforceable.

    Offer and Acceptance

    The contract involves an offer (or more than one offer) to another party, who accepts the offer. For example, in a contract for the sale of a piano, the seller may offer the piano to the buyer for $1,000.00. The buyer's acceptance of that offer is a necessary part of creating a binding contract for the sale of the piano.
    Please note that a counter-offer is not an acceptance, and will typically be treated as a rejection of the offer. For example, if the buyer counter-offers to purchase the piano for $800.00, that typically counts as a rejection of the original offer for sale. If the seller accepts the counter-offer, a contract may be completed. However, if the seller rejects the counter-offer, the buyer will not ordinarily be entitled to enforce the prior $1,000.00 price if the seller decides either to raise the price or to sell the piano to somebody else.

    Mutual Consideration (The mutual exchange of something of value)

    In order to be valid, the parties to a contract must exchange something of value. In the case of the sale of a piano, the buyer receives something of value in the form of the piano, and the seller receives money.
    While the validity of consideration may be subject to attack on the basis that it is illusory (e.g., one party receives only what the other party was already obligated to provide), or that there is a failure of consideration (e.g., the consideration received by one party is essentially worthless), these defenses will not let a party to a contract escape the consequences of bad negotiation. For example, if a seller enters into a contract to sell a piano for $100, and later gets an offer from somebody else for $1,000, the seller can't revoke the contract on the basis that the piano was worth a lot more than he bargained to receive.

    Performance or Delivery

    In order to be enforceable, the action contemplated by the contract must be completed. For example, if the purchaser of a piano pays the $1,000 purchase price, he can enforce the contract to require the delivery of the piano. However, unless the contract provides that delivery will occur before payment, the buyer may not be able to enforce the contract if he does not "perform" by paying the $1,000. Similarly, again depending upon the contract terms, the seller may not be able to enforce the contract without first delivering the piano.
    In a typical "breach of contract" action, the party alleging the breach will recite that it performed all of its duties under the contract, whereas the other party failed to perform its duties or obligations.
    Additionally, the following elements may factor into the enforceability of any contract:

    Good Faith

    It is implicit within all contracts that the parties are acting in good faith. For example, if the seller of a "mustang" knows that the buyer thinks he is purchasing a car, but secretly intends to sell the buyer a horse, the seller is not acting in good faith and the contract will not be enforceable.

    No Violation of Public Policy

    In order to be enforceable, a contract cannot violate "public policy". For example, if the subject matter of a contract is illegal, you cannot enforce the contract. A contract for the sale of illegal drugs, for example, violates public policy and is not enforceable.
    Please note that public policy can shift. Traditionally, many states refused to honor gambling debts incurred in other jurisdictions on public policy grounds. However, as more and more states have permitted gambling within their own borders, that policy has mostly been abandoned and gambling debts from legal enterprises are now typically enforceable. (A "bookie" might not be able to enforce a debt arising from an illegal gambling enterprise, but a legal casino will now typically be able to enforce its debt.) Similarly, it used to be legal to sell "switchblade kits" through the U.S. mail, but that practice is now illegal. Contracts for the interstate sale of such kits were no longer enforceable following that change in the law.
    Last edited by nonpareil; 04-28-12 at 08:59 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Free_Radical View Post

    And I wasn't making an appeal to authority, I was making an appeal to the philosophical body of work of the founders, the worth and content of which should be well-known to anyone with a cursory understanding of basic history and philosophy.

    Brian

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    Re: Teacher Claims She Was Fired From Catholic School For In Vitro Fertilization

    Quote Originally Posted by Μολὼν λαβέ View Post
    The teacher fired had a contract; I guarantee that. You really think her contract violated any law? Not a snowballs chance in Hell. The teacher violated the tenets of the contract according to the school, which acknowledged by the legal article I posted earlier, is not in her favor. Sorry but I'm afraid its game over for her whether you believe it or not.
    It's not for you to decide whether the contract violates the law, whether you believe it or not, it's the job of the justice system at this point.
    Quote Originally Posted by Free_Radical View Post

    And I wasn't making an appeal to authority, I was making an appeal to the philosophical body of work of the founders, the worth and content of which should be well-known to anyone with a cursory understanding of basic history and philosophy.

    Brian

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    Re: Teacher Claims She Was Fired From Catholic School For In Vitro Fertilization

    Quote Originally Posted by nonpareil View Post
    It's not for you to decide whether the contract violates the law, whether you believe it or not, it's the job of the justice system at this point.
    Quoting from introductory contract law clairifies your lack of knowledge about professional teacher contracts.

    You really think there was something illegal like this in her contract?



    http://www.expertlaw.com/library/bus...tract_law.html

    In order to be enforceable, a contract cannot violate "public policy". For example, if the subject matter of a contract is illegal, you cannot enforce the contract. A contract for the sale of illegal drugs, for example, violates public policy and is not enforceable.
    Please note that public policy can shift. Traditionally, many states refused to honor gambling debts incurred in other jurisdictions on public policy grounds. However, as more and more states have permitted gambling within their own borders, that policy has mostly been abandoned and gambling debts from legal enterprises are now typically enforceable. (A "bookie" might not be able to enforce a debt arising from an illegal gambling enterprise, but a legal casino will now typically be able to enforce its debt.) Similarly, it used to be legal to sell "switchblade kits" through the U.S. mail, but that practice is now illegal. Contracts for the interstate sale of such kits were no longer enforceable following that change in the law.
    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    Generalizations are stupid.
    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Steel View Post
    The Second Amendment has nothing to do with guns.

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    Re: Teacher Claims She Was Fired From Catholic School For In Vitro Fertilization

    Quote Originally Posted by Josie View Post
    So you do hate Catholics. You hate the ones who govern the rest of the flock.
    Wow, I am clearly over matched here.

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    Re: Teacher Claims She Was Fired From Catholic School For In Vitro Fertilization

    Quote Originally Posted by Μολὼν λαβέ View Post
    Not sure I'm following you. What do you mean she was "given the green light to proceed?" Her supervisor told her it was OK to have the procedure done, or her supervisor told her she could take time off work when she requested time off to have the procedure done?
    From the news account I heard, she approached her supervisor and advised her supervisor of her intentions and was told it was fine. If she was terminated after she was told it was OK to proceed, then Im fine with the firing...but believe she should be compensated. If she was told on advance that it was not in line with their beliefs and her actions could result in her termination and she still made the choice, then...well...thats her choice.

    I disagree with the church's position, but respect their right to have it.

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    Re: Teacher Claims She Was Fired From Catholic School For In Vitro Fertilization

    Quote Originally Posted by Billy the Kid View Post
    Just because you've had a bad experience doesn't mean you can sit in judgement on others beliefs. .
    I actually don't care what others believe. Just don't make laws that inflict your religion on me and I'm fine.

  10. #140
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    Re: Teacher Claims She Was Fired From Catholic School For In Vitro Fertilization

    Quote Originally Posted by nonpareil View Post
    How do you whether she wants to a Catholic or not or whether she wants to work for a Catholic organisation or not? Those thing are entirely irrelevant to this discussion anyway. If you don't want people to be able to sue employers over discrimination because you think that's taking "choice" away from the employers, then start a petition to repeal the statute. It doesn't change the fact there is a law against employer discrimination, and the Catholic Church is not above the Law. Whether there's a disability or whether the exceptions include teachers is something for the court to decide, not you.

    Instead of going into group-think and use terms like "Libbys", maybe you should educate yourself about why the Law takes precedence over any particular religion.


    "The diocese said that teachers, even those such as Herx who aren't Catholic, are required by their contracts to abide by Catholic tenets and "serve as moral exemplars.". I'm sure you read this before, since it is what the thread is all about, but incase you missed it.

    She had a "choice" she chose to work for the Catholic diocese.

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