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Thread: Deal OKs bill requiring drug testing for welfare recipients

  1. #141
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    Re: Deal OKs bill requiring drug testing for welfare recipients

    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFromAll View Post
    And what kind of proof do you have that this type of fraud is done by the majority of the recipients? BTW the penalty for the fraud that you are talking about is being banned from ever receiving any benefits ever again. Its not like its ok to defraud the government. That being said I do not support people who are not actually in need getting welfare. I think that if welfare was truly for emergency situations and not just because you are under a certain amount of income in a given time, that there would be more support for it. But the scope of welfare has gotten out of hand especially since the economy has been down.
    Personal experience is all I have and I never said it was done by the majority of recipients.
    I'm just injecting that the "studies" done, were not comprehensive in detailing problems associated with abuse and fraud, within government social need programs.

    Sure this is illegal, but the overwhelming vast majority of people who defraud these social programs are hardly discovered.
    The enforcement mechanisms to catch them just really don't exist.
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    Re: Deal OKs bill requiring drug testing for welfare recipients

    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFromAll View Post
    And what kind of proof do you have that this type of fraud is done by the majority of the recipients? BTW the penalty for the fraud that you are talking about is being banned from ever receiving any benefits ever again. Its not like its ok to defraud the government. That being said I do not support people who are not actually in need getting welfare. I think that if welfare was truly for emergency situations and not just because you are under a certain amount of income in a given time, that there would be more support for it. But the scope of welfare has gotten out of hand especially since the economy has been down.
    It doesn't matter if it's the majority of recipients or just a few. Wrong is wrong and the system needs to respond to stop *ANYONE* who does it from doing so. There are stores out there who will give EBT customers the entire balance on their card in cash without giving them a single product from the store, then charge the government that money against the net value of the products in the store. They make out like bandits.
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  3. #143
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    Re: Deal OKs bill requiring drug testing for welfare recipients

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    It doesn't matter if it's the majority of recipients or just a few. Wrong is wrong and the system needs to respond to stop *ANYONE* who does it from doing so. There are stores out there who will give EBT customers the entire balance on their card in cash without giving them a single product from the store, then charge the government that money against the net value of the products in the store. They make out like bandits.
    Well of course bad people should be stopped from being bad. And it does make a difference how many people are being bad. If the amount is high it has an entirely different effect than if the amount is low.

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    Re: Deal OKs bill requiring drug testing for welfare recipients

    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFromAll View Post
    Well of course bad people should be stopped from being bad. And it does make a difference how many people are being bad. If the amount is high it has an entirely different effect than if the amount is low.
    Irrelevant. That's like saying that because relatively few people are murderers, we shouldn't pursue murderers like we would if a relatively high number were doing it. Violating the law is violating the law. The effect is irrelevant. The fact that the law was broken is.
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    Re: Deal OKs bill requiring drug testing for welfare recipients

    Quote Originally Posted by Travelsonic View Post
    Except we know that murder, theft, etc HARMS - hence why they're illegal - IMO, terrible analogy.
    And MJ, cocaine, heroin, extacy, are not harmful?
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    Re: Deal OKs bill requiring drug testing for welfare recipients

    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFromAll View Post
    Of course you can say whatever you please, but at least realize that when someone says something specifically to someone it was not a general statement. Plus you seemed to have ignored the context in its entirety adnd added an strawman argument in its place. In short you are in left field and ball was not.
    In case you didn't notice I've been replying in this thread quite often so its not like I haven't been paying attention to what everyone else has been saying or just jumped in the middle.

    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFromAll View Post
    Personal experiences while important to your decision making turns out to be just your opinion to the rest of us.
    We all base our opinions on personal experiances...be they from studies written by "experts" or by observations or something else. So if you wanted to get real technical everything we argue about here at DP is nothing more than one huge opinion fest.

    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFromAll View Post
    True illegal drugs are illegal, cant deny that at all. But so was alcohol at one point and now alcohol is not illegal. And since the effects of alcohol (ie on society) is much the same as todays illegal drugs it means that your argument is one of convinence not factual.
    And if people died while alcohol was illegal I would still agree that the dealers should be put to death. Hell, my personal opinion is that anyone that DUI and kills someone should be charged with murder one since they purposely got drunk. So no, it has nothing to do with convinence.

    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFromAll View Post
    Yes I see that when you take an sentence out of the paragraph that it lacks context. If this is something that you commonly do my guess is that you have trouble understanding written words. What you did by taking the sentence out of context, is create a strawman finger pointing irrelevant childish assertion.
    You are the one that put "and" in that sentence which means that it should be able to stand on its own. But regardless even with the previous sentence the one that I did respond to makes me still go "wow".

    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFromAll View Post
    Wouldnt it be wise then to test TANF recipients for alcohol and tobacco as well? Alcohol is number 5 on a list of most dangerous drugs and Meth/amphetamines is number 6. And missing from the list is marijuana, yet that is what will be the primary drug being tested for.
    Again, alcohol and tobacco is legal. If getting TANF benefits meant that you could not do any of those things or if those things were illegal then I would agree. But it doesn't and its not, so I don't.

    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFromAll View Post
    I agree that there are many people taking advantage of welfare. But as Florida has shown drug testing will not reduce the number of welfare recipients in any meaningful way. Personally IMO welfare should be like the CCC, meaning that you do not receive anything without working for it. There are plenty of things that society needs workers for. Instead of having permanent public workers (not in all cases but for the most part) put the truly needy to work. ANd since it has been proven in court that you can test workers for drugs when safety is an issue, then do the testing when the person seeks employment with the government. Welfare would really then only be for the disabled since all able bodies would be put to work. Those who did not want to work would not get anything.
    I would have absolutely no problem with putting people that apply and get TANF to work. Even a parapalygic(sp?) is capable of doing some things with the technology that we have today. Look at Steven Hawkings.
    Last edited by Kal'Stang; 04-22-12 at 04:26 PM.
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    Re: Deal OKs bill requiring drug testing for welfare recipients

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    Irrelevant. That's like saying that because relatively few people are murderers, we shouldn't pursue murderers like we would if a relatively high number were doing it. Violating the law is violating the law. The effect is irrelevant. The fact that the law was broken is.
    I am not sure how you think that you misrepresent what I said to come to the opposite conclusion. FFS I said that the people committing fraud should be busted. Then I added that it does matter how many people are defrauding welfare programs. I know that it didnt fit your argument since I was agreeing but damn man to read something and try a strawman argument when it was obvious that I did not say anything like that is just too much.

    I agree that welfare programs are being exploited and that the law allows people who do not need aid to get benefits. I just do not agree that drug testing will fix those problems in any shape or form. In other words drug testing is irrelevant since it does nothing to fix the problem it only scores political points among the Republican party. That way Republicans can pat themselves on the back thinking that they stuck it to those lazy stoner Liberals that they obsess about. Meanwhile nothing was fixed or even attempted to be fixed. People will continue to defraud welfare the only difference will be that stoners wont be able too. And stoners are probably too lazy to do it in the first place. They are too busy playing WoW in their bedroom while their mom brings them munches.

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    Re: Deal OKs bill requiring drug testing for welfare recipients

    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFromAll View Post
    I agree that welfare programs are being exploited and that the law allows people who do not need aid to get benefits. I just do not agree that drug testing will fix those problems in any shape or form. In other words drug testing is irrelevant since it does nothing to fix the problem it only scores political points among the Republican party. That way Republicans can pat themselves on the back thinking that they stuck it to those lazy stoner Liberals that they obsess about. Meanwhile nothing was fixed or even attempted to be fixed. People will continue to defraud welfare the only difference will be that stoners wont be able too. And stoners are probably too lazy to do it in the first place. They are too busy playing WoW in their bedroom while their mom brings them munches.
    But nobody is arguing that drug testing, in and of itself, will solve all the problems. It is a part of a multi-pronged approach to comprehensive welfare reform. It includes going after fraud. It includes requiring welfare recipients to receive an education and job-training. It includes stopping welfare recipients from breaking the law. It forces these people off their fat asses and into the work force, not because they want to, but because they absolutely have no choice in the matter.
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    Re: Deal OKs bill requiring drug testing for welfare recipients

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    But nobody is arguing that drug testing, in and of itself, will solve all the problems. It is a part of a multi-pronged approach to comprehensive welfare reform. It includes going after fraud. It includes requiring welfare recipients to receive an education and job-training. It includes stopping welfare recipients from breaking the law. It forces these people off their fat asses and into the work force, not because they want to, but because they absolutely have no choice in the matter.
    Agreed. This is just one small step. We need to do lots more.
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    Re: Deal OKs bill requiring drug testing for welfare recipients

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    In case you didn't notice I've been replying in this thread quite often so its not like I haven't been paying attention to what everyone else has been saying or just jumped in the middle.
    Congratulations?


    We all base our opinions on personal experiances...be they from studies written by "experts" or by observations or something else. So if you wanted to get real technical everything we argue about here at DP is nothing more than one huge opinion fest.
    And links are meaningless to you?



    And if people died while alcohol was illegal I would still agree that the dealers should be put to death. Hell, my personal opinion is that anyone that DUI and kills someone should be charged with murder one since they purposely got drunk. So no, it has nothing to do with convinence.
    ok


    You are the one that put "and" in that sentence which means that it should be able to stand on its own. But regardless even with the previous sentence the one that I did respond to makes me still go "wow".
    Again you are still taking it out of context. But Ill agree that obviously I should have said it better.

    Again, alcohol and tobacco is legal. If getting TANF benefits meant that you could not do any of those things or if those things were illegal then I would agree. But it doesn't and its not, so I don't.
    Gambling is legal in many places in the States. You can also purchase dvd's, porn anything with money. And that's what TANF recipients get is real money. There are plenty of things that would be considered frivolous that are quit legal to buy.


    I would have absolutely no problem with putting people that apply and get TANF to work. Even a parapalygic(sp?) is capable of doing some things with the technology that we have today. Look at Steven Hawkings.
    Well it really does depend on the disability.
    Last edited by FreedomFromAll; 04-22-12 at 06:25 PM.

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