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Thread: O'Keefe Voter Fraud Investigation: Young Man Offered Holder's Ballot

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    Re: O'Keefe Voter Fraud Investigation: Young Man Offered Holder's Ballot

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    There are people unable to get IDs because they lack the paperwork required to get them. Getting that paperwork often requires an ID.

    Disenfranchisement is very cumbersome.
    Sorry. No dice. Everyone needs to meet certainly eligibility requirements to vote.
    That means proving that you are you somewhere. All states could easily have laws for ID that conform to that basic requirement.

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    Re: O'Keefe Voter Fraud Investigation: Young Man Offered Holder's Ballot

    Quote Originally Posted by Eighty Deuce View Post
    Sorry. No dice. Everyone needs to meet certainly eligibility requirements to vote.
    That means proving that you are you somewhere. All states could easily have laws for ID that conform to that basic requirement.
    Well, you're welcome to your opinion, but what I said is true. Some people cannot obtain a photo ID. Requiring an ID would therefore disenfranchise them. Voting is the main fundamental right to democracy. I'm willing to accept (very) isolated instances of fraud to make sure that eligible voters are not excluded.

    Voter fraud is possible. Obviously. It's also possible to steal a tree. Neither is something particularly common. I've yet to see evidence that actual fraudulently cast votes is something that happens regularly. It's because I don't gain anything by voting twice. Hell, people barely want to vote once. Often cited are things that wouldn't be prevented by voter ID's, like felons who cast votes when they are not actually eligible. The ID check wouldn't catch that, your driver's license doesn't say "FELON" on it.

    No system will ever be perfect. Even requiring ID's, people can get fake ID's. We call them "college students." So, the main question really comes down to this: what burden are we placing on the people trying to exercise a fundamental right, and how much fraud is actually prevented by this measure?

    I don't see that ratio as being in favor of ID laws.

    And I am absolutely, positively not going to accept footage at face value from someone with a proven history of lying by editing footage!
    Last edited by Deuce; 04-10-12 at 03:48 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
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    Re: O'Keefe Voter Fraud Investigation: Young Man Offered Holder's Ballot

    Maybe its because you dont understand how attempted voter fraud works. You begin by making fake registrations. You then have people go in posed as the people on the registrations to vote. Voter ID eliminates this as a possible fraud avenue. Thats ACORN was persued as hard as it was with its faked registrations. The intent to defraud is certainly there if you begin by faking regs. Then getting extra votes is a simple matter of just getting a warm body to the polling place.

    You are confusing voter fraud convictions with actual voter fraud. Its notoriously hard to prosecute and the political pushback from doing so is significant.

    And I am absolutely, positively not going to accept footage at face value from someone with a proven history of lying by editing footage!
    Does that mean you arent going trust NBC, Rueters, and CBS, each of whom has faked footage, photos or documents? Im not saying take it at face value, Im saying look at it and make your own judgements. I dont expect you to be a sheep over it.

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    Re: O'Keefe Voter Fraud Investigation: Young Man Offered Holder's Ballot

    Quote Originally Posted by OpportunityCost View Post
    Maybe its because you dont understand how attempted voter fraud works. You begin by making fake registrations. You then have people go in posed as the people on the registrations to vote. Voter ID eliminates this as a possible fraud avenue. Thats ACORN was persued as hard as it was with its faked registrations. The intent to defraud is certainly there if you begin by faking regs. Then getting extra votes is a simple matter of just getting a warm body to the polling place.

    You are confusing voter fraud convictions with actual voter fraud. Its notoriously hard to prosecute and the political pushback from doing so is significant.


    Does that mean you arent going trust NBC, Rueters, and CBS, each of whom has faked footage, photos or documents? Im not saying take it at face value, Im saying look at it and make your own judgements. I dont expect you to be a sheep over it.
    Sigh. Another victim of O'Keefe.
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    Re: O'Keefe Voter Fraud Investigation: Young Man Offered Holder's Ballot

    Quote Originally Posted by OpportunityCost View Post
    I think approaching the voter fraud problem from a standpoint of how much is caught is the current wisdom standard for asking why we need it. Should the standard be how much potential is there for abuse? How easy is it to use a voter's identity once its on the rolls, if the abuser knows they either wont be voting or the registration is false in itself?

    This seems to show its pretty easy.
    But there was no voter fraud in this case.
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    Re: O'Keefe Voter Fraud Investigation: Young Man Offered Holder's Ballot

    Quote Originally Posted by OpportunityCost View Post
    Maybe its because you dont understand how attempted voter fraud works. You begin by making fake registrations. You then have people go in posed as the people on the registrations to vote. Voter ID eliminates this as a possible fraud avenue. Thats ACORN was persued as hard as it was with its faked registrations. The intent to defraud is certainly there if you begin by faking regs. Then getting extra votes is a simple matter of just getting a warm body to the polling place.
    No, actually, the intent to make fraudulent votes was never present in the ACORN case. These were lazy temporary employees who figured out they could get paid to sit at the mall and fake registrations instead of having to walk around and, you know, work. Nobody showed up to the polls claiming to be Mickey Mouse.


    You are confusing voter fraud convictions with actual voter fraud. Its notoriously hard to prosecute and the political pushback from doing so is significant.
    Can you cite an example of "political pushback" for prosecuting voter fraud?


    Does that mean you arent going trust NBC, Rueters, and CBS, each of whom has faked footage, photos or documents? Im not saying take it at face value, Im saying look at it and make your own judgements. I dont expect you to be a sheep over it.
    NBC fires people who fraudulently edit footage. They are an organization. O'Keefe is an individual, a proven liar. I'm not going to watch the footage because the footage itself is immediately suspect. The footage itself is deceptive in his past cases. Take the ACORN "helping set up a brothel" footage. Reality was precisely the opposite, the house loan supposedly being sought was actually pitched as an escape from prostitution for these underage girls. That part was cut out. In another part of that video, audio was spliced so that the answer to one question was presented as the answer to a different one. Also, the guy after the discussion immediately called the police after O'Keefe left.

    Why should I watch his footage?
    He touched her over her bra and underpants, she says, and guided her hand to touch him over his underwear
    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    We’ll say what? Something like “nothing happened” ... Yeah, we might say something like that.

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    Re: O'Keefe Voter Fraud Investigation: Young Man Offered Holder's Ballot

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    ............ Why should I watch his footage?
    From where you sit, I dunno

    When an entire political party can say "no big deal" to Fast and Furious, Race-baiting by a President, Major networks lying about news so as to foment racial tensions, and are a party already committed to all ends that produce class-warfare justify the means ........ I would agree. Voter fraud is good from that view.

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    Re: O'Keefe Voter Fraud Investigation: Young Man Offered Holder's Ballot

    Quote Originally Posted by Eighty Deuce View Post
    From where you sit, I dunno

    When an entire political party can say "no big deal" to Fast and Furious, Race-baiting by a President, Major networks lying about news so as to foment racial tensions, and are a party already committed to all ends that produce class-warfare justify the means ........ I would agree. Voter fraud is good from that view.
    Now that the over the top partisan hyperbole is out of the way.... all you have to do is present some actual data on voter fraud convictions to show it is a significant problem.
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    Re: O'Keefe Voter Fraud Investigation: Young Man Offered Holder's Ballot

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Now that the over the top partisan hyperbole is out of the way.... all you have to do is present some actual data on voter fraud convictions to show it is a significant problem.
    Seems I was spot-on with my "what me worry" examples

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    Re: O'Keefe Voter Fraud Investigation: Young Man Offered Holder's Ballot

    Quote Originally Posted by OpportunityCost View Post
    I think approaching the voter fraud problem from a standpoint of how much is caught is the current wisdom standard for asking why we need it. Should the standard be how much potential is there for abuse? How easy is it to use a voter's identity once its on the rolls, if the abuser knows they either wont be voting or the registration is false in itself?
    This seems to show its pretty easy.
    You can't make security decisions based on just how valuable something is to you. You also have to figure in how likely it is to be attacked.
    In the end, the more secure something is, the less usable it is. The more usable, the less secure. For something to be totally secure it has to be totally useless.

    So what is needed is to find the appropriate balance of security and usefulness.

    Most of us don't live in fortresses because of how we balance out need for security against the pita of living inside reinforced steel walls. For the most part it's quite acceptable to live in a normal house.

    If we looked only at the potential for abuse, it would be hard to justify not placing our loved ones in a a citadel of titanium. The potential for abuse is great. Our loved ones could be harmed or killed.
    But, in reality, we balance the likelihood of being harmed against the various costs incurred to prevent the harm. We can never be entirely secure, so we pick a place that provides a sufficient assurance of safety and a sufficient amount of ease of living--a house, not a bank vault.


    So, in short, it's not reasonable to decide what appropriate measures for preventing voting fraud by merely examining the potential for abuse.
    I may be wrong.

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