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Thread: O'Keefe Voter Fraud Investigation: Young Man Offered Holder's Ballot

  1. #251
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    Re: O'Keefe Voter Fraud Investigation: Young Man Offered Holder's Ballot

    Quote Originally Posted by Quag View Post
    Where can you show me the motives behind what you are saying? You are implying them but where is the proof? [...] Yes I know you will point to lack of proof that there is voter fraud caused by not requiring ID. This doesnt change the fact that it is possible [...]
    I'm not surprised that you claim a lack of proof that the Republican motive in requiring new ID is to disenfranchise minorities, the poor, and the aged. This doesnt change the fact that it is possible . . .
    Last edited by Karl; 04-13-12 at 02:30 PM.

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    Re: O'Keefe Voter Fraud Investigation: Young Man Offered Holder's Ballot

    Quote Originally Posted by Quag View Post
    [...] As to those in favor (on this forum) I have not heard them demand a voter photo ID card (tired of typing that, VPID) Only those against have mentioned that.
    It is common knowledge to those who are familiar with the topic. Your confusion is a result of weighing in on a topic that you

    a) are not familiar with, and

    b) have failed to research (sorry, listening to talk radio does not qualify as research).

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    Re: O'Keefe Voter Fraud Investigation: Young Man Offered Holder's Ballot

    Quote Originally Posted by ARealConservative View Post
    You are ignorant. Science refers to a system of acquiring knowledge. We know some level of election fraud occurs, I am pursuing a a system of acquiring knowledge about the level of corruption that occurs.

    Your analogy is equally idiotic. A better one is that someone is stealing money from me. Now I am going to start counting the money so I know exactly how much was stolen.
    You don't know that anyone is stealing from you, you admitted as much. The system won't "acquire knowledge" about the level of "corruption" that occur because the kind of fraud that has been documented will not be caught by the photo ID requirement. Requiring photo ID also will not stop people from using fake IDs which are easy to get. All and all, you propose an ineffective system that might have a big cost, to solve a problem that you don't even know exists to any large extend.

    I call your arguement idiotic because factually it is and I explained in details why. Calling me "ignorant" and "idiotic" won't change that.
    Last edited by nonpareil; 04-14-12 at 02:58 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Free_Radical View Post

    And I wasn't making an appeal to authority, I was making an appeal to the philosophical body of work of the founders, the worth and content of which should be well-known to anyone with a cursory understanding of basic history and philosophy.

    Brian

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    Re: O'Keefe Voter Fraud Investigation: Young Man Offered Holder's Ballot

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    The key word there is "suspect". What if you don't suspect?
    And how will a photo ID change that? That someone can produce a photo ID doesn't mean that it is not fake. So anyone who claims that the requirement is so that they know that there will be no fraud going on is just giving themselves a false consolation. A photo ID requirement will not do that.


    And how can "Holder" in this case know whether someone voted for him or not? Particularly if he didn't vote because of some emergency. Or if he goes to a different polling station.
    Holder can go to the registrar (if he cares enough to do so) and see that a ballot was cast in his name when in fact he never did, that's the only way to know. Requiring photo ID would not change any of that. If there's Holders who's determined to the be the same person in the registrar voting at 2 different polling stations, that's a clear case of fraud, whether there's a photo requirement or not.
    Quote Originally Posted by Free_Radical View Post

    And I wasn't making an appeal to authority, I was making an appeal to the philosophical body of work of the founders, the worth and content of which should be well-known to anyone with a cursory understanding of basic history and philosophy.

    Brian

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    Re: O'Keefe Voter Fraud Investigation: Young Man Offered Holder's Ballot

    Quote Originally Posted by Quag View Post
    Actually this is my point. you point out the other sides stance (voter photo ID law) then ascribe an evil intent to it (depriving minorities of votes)
    On the other side people have pointed out your stance (Voter photo ID not necessary) then ascribe evil intent to it (permitting voter fraud to keep your side in power)

    That was my point! Same story different spin. This is why I like it when US talk radio shows are on same subject. I find it amusing that they automatically assume the other sides stance is based on some sort of nefarious plot.

    Let me try this.

    Karl: If requesting voter ID would cost the state nothing and not disenfranchise people would you still be against it?

    Kal'Stang: Is a seperate voter photo ID card what you are demanding? would a lesser threshold of Identification be acceptable to you?

    *edit* Didn't mean to limit questions to Karl and Kal'Stang. Everyone please feel free to answer either/both questions.
    Sure, if the government can magically give everyone a photo ID at no costs before the election, why not? Then you wouldn't even need to consider whether there's any benefit from the scheme since there's no cost at all. But the real world doesn't work that way.
    Quote Originally Posted by Free_Radical View Post

    And I wasn't making an appeal to authority, I was making an appeal to the philosophical body of work of the founders, the worth and content of which should be well-known to anyone with a cursory understanding of basic history and philosophy.

    Brian

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    Re: O'Keefe Voter Fraud Investigation: Young Man Offered Holder's Ballot

    Quote Originally Posted by nonpareil View Post
    And how will a photo ID change that? That someone can produce a photo ID doesn't mean that it is not fake. So anyone who claims that the requirement is so that they know that there will be no fraud going on is just giving themselves a false consolation. A photo ID requirement will not do that.
    It may not stop it...but it sure can limit it. Lets say a crooked politician/corporation wants to rig the votes by hiring people to cast fake votes by using other peoples names. As it stands right now that crooked politician/corporation could just pay someone 50 bucks to do one, another person another 50 bucks to do it also and so on and so forth. For someone that is poor and needs money that may sound like a good deal. Especially when you consider most poor people don't know the punishment for voter fraud. (I know I didn't until this thread)

    But with requireing a voter ID that crooked politician now has to provide those fake ID's. In order to do that you have to find someone to make it and they get to charge their normal rate. Which from what I have heard is around $300 per ID. How many politicians are going to spend that much for the amount of votes needed to sway an election?

    Please note that the above here is simplistic and would more than likely be far more convoluted. I could make it more convoluted but I'm just trying to make a point...not write a desertation.

    Quote Originally Posted by nonpareil View Post
    Holder can go to the registrar (if he cares enough to do so) and see that a ballot was cast in his name when in fact he never did, that's the only way to know. Requiring photo ID would not change any of that. If there's Holders who's determined to the be the same person in the registrar voting at 2 different polling stations, that's a clear case of fraud, whether there's a photo requirement or not.
    Holder might do such a thing. But what about Jane doe? John Doe? Mr. Smith? How many people actually go to the registrar and check to see if they have already voted or voted twice? Would people that don't even normally vote go check? Do you even check? I would bet that no one actually ever does this. I mean why would you? You don't believe in voter fraud on this side of the curtain.
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    Re: O'Keefe Voter Fraud Investigation: Young Man Offered Holder's Ballot

    Since you support a new regulation (some sort of gov't issued photo voter ID), the burden is upon you to show why it is a good thing.

    Good luck
    I'm not surprised that you claim a lack of proof that the Republican motive in requiring new ID is to disenfranchise minorities, the poor, and the aged. This doesnt change the fact that it is possible . . .
    hypocritical much?

    lets have some fun

    I'm not surprised that you claim a lack of proof of this type of voter fraud means ANY type of voter id is unecessay. This doesnt change the fact that it is possible. see what I did there
    Go back reread my posts, notice the difference between when I ask a question and when I make a statement. I think you will find I am not an extremist on this issue.

    Since you never answered before I will ask again.
    If voter ID requirement would not cost the sate anything and not disenfranchise anyone would you still be against it? If so why?
    Notice questions? not the same thing as a statement. in fact the posing of a question is pretty much the admittance that I am i seeking knowledge/clarification on the subject.

    It is common knowledge to those who are familiar with the topic. Your confusion is a result of weighing in on a topic that you

    a) are not familiar with, and

    b) have failed to research (sorry, listening to talk radio does not qualify as research).
    Your confusing me with Kal'Stang. I didn`t weigh in on the topic I asked a question and got very unsatisactory answers, and some rather snippy comments from ppl who assumed things about me without actually noticing I was asking for information IE I was trying to get informed. Seems some ppl here would rather spout off rather than read the actual posts. Would you not consider that my posts asking for such information as to why this voter ID thing should be such a negative as not an attempt by me to inform myself? I never claimed talk radio was research, I merely stated that listening to talk radio both sides spin things and accuse others of nefarious plots. You still haven't proven that Kal'Stang wants to disenfracnhise ppl because of the way they vote, You have only pointed out it may be possible and then JUMPED at that as their reasoning. This is proof of my statement, something that seems to have been lost on you. Kal'Stang hasn't proven you want to keep the laws the same so your side can win elections through fraud either, but as my posts about this have been in reply to you, I haven't really brought that up. it is exactly the same thing.
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    Re: O'Keefe Voter Fraud Investigation: Young Man Offered Holder's Ballot

    Quote Originally Posted by Quag View Post
    Your confusing me with Kal'Stang. I didn`t weigh in on the topic I asked a question and got very unsatisactory answers, and some rather snippy comments from ppl who assumed things about me without actually noticing I was asking for information IE I was trying to get informed. Seems some ppl here would rather spout off rather than read the actual posts. Would you not consider that my posts asking for such information as to why this voter ID thing should be such a negative as not an attempt by me to inform myself? I never claimed talk radio was research, I merely stated that listening to talk radio both sides spin things and accuse others of nefarious plots. You still haven't proven that Kal'Stang wants to disenfracnhise ppl because of the way they vote, You have only pointed out it may be possible and then JUMPED at that as their reasoning. This is proof of my statement, something that seems to have been lost on you. Kal'Stang hasn't proven you want to keep the laws the same so your side can win elections through fraud either, but as my posts about this have been in reply to you, I haven't really brought that up. it is exactly the same thing.
    You're right I haven't. I have based my entire arguement on what I believe to be common sense, logic, and a knowledge of how people are. Nothing more. I have done this because I don't believe that it is possible to get what they ask for. For the simple fact that it is almost (at best) impossible to track voter fraud from the direction that ID's would help. I mean...where do people think the term "ballot box stuffing" came from? It came about due to people literally voting more than once in an election. Yet all of a sudden such a thing is denied as even existing.
    I have an answer for everything...you may not like the answer or it may not satisfy your curiosity..but it will still be an answer. ~ Kal'Stang

    My mind and my heart are saying I'm in my twenties. My body is pointing at my mind and heart and laughing its ass off. ~ Kal'Stang

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    Re: O'Keefe Voter Fraud Investigation: Young Man Offered Holder's Ballot

    Sure, if the government can magically give everyone a photo ID at no costs before the election, why not? Then you wouldn't even need to consider whether there's any benefit from the scheme since there's no cost at all. But the real world doesn't work that way.
    That is why I left the photo part out, I know I know everyone here means photo ID, But as i have said umpteen times in Canada, if anyone would have bothered to look at the link I posted, Photo ID is not required. There is a higher level of proof for non photo ID, example a piece of non photo ID and an electricity bill, with name and adress on it. As I seem to be having problems with ppl who read part of the posts and jump to conclusions, that is just an EXAMPLE there are lots of ways you can do it.
    I understand the USA doesnt have national health cards like we do here (actually they are povincial but cards from 1 province are accepted* in others, It is in a way national).
    I will reask my question using Canadian requirements would you have any problems with voter ID?

    *Don't want to get into the healthcare thing here, that would be another topic, but the cards between provinces are't equal. What one province covers is not necessarily the same as what another covers. Way to complicated to explain but for practical use your card is good anywhere in canada.
    Last edited by Quag; 04-14-12 at 09:12 AM.
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    Re: O'Keefe Voter Fraud Investigation: Young Man Offered Holder's Ballot

    nonpareil:
    just realized I missed the 2nd part of your post. Yes cost/benefit analysis must be considered.
    Should bank tellers have bullet proof glass? should they have armored steel between them? should they be behind 3 feet of steel reinforced concrete with monitors to interact with costomers? Obviously at some point it gets ridiculous and there is no point. But I think most people would agree a bank with no guards/video surveillance/alarms/safes/seperation between tellers and customers will probably get robbed fairly often. Each time you add a measure you increase security and decrease risk but often at a price.
    A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.
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    A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.
    Winston Churchill

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