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Thread: O'Keefe Voter Fraud Investigation: Young Man Offered Holder's Ballot

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    Re: O'Keefe Voter Fraud Investigation: Young Man Offered Holder's Ballot

    Quote Originally Posted by ARealConservative View Post
    only one side is visible.

    If a person is denied a right to vote, he knows then and there he is being disenfranchised. They can step forward and show conclusively that a problem exists.

    If my vote is being undermined by fraud, I have no way of knowing that I am being disenfranchised. nobody can step forward and prove the problem exists, that doesn't mean the problem isn't there.

    as a scientifically minded individual, I choose the system of knowing over the system of not knowing 10 times out of 10
    You're not being scientific, seems to me your arguement is pretty idiotic. It's like saying you would rather know that you lose $10, rather than dropping a cent or two without knowing about it. On top of that, since you don't know that there is a big problem of in person voter fraud to begin with, and the solution you sought would not prevent most kind of electoral frauds currently being documented, you are saying you would rather give away $10 to prevent the possibility of losing a few cents, basing this probability entirely on unsubstantiated suspicions, and even though giving away the $10 might have nothing to do with the few cents you do lose.

    The problem exists for the people who have been prevented from voting because their ID did not meet the requirement. The people who cares are stepping forward to say that this could create a problem if it goes forward, but you just don't acknowledge it so don't say that people don't "step forward".
    Last edited by nonpareil; 04-13-12 at 01:58 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Free_Radical View Post

    And I wasn't making an appeal to authority, I was making an appeal to the philosophical body of work of the founders, the worth and content of which should be well-known to anyone with a cursory understanding of basic history and philosophy.

    Brian

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    Re: O'Keefe Voter Fraud Investigation: Young Man Offered Holder's Ballot

    Quote Originally Posted by OpportunityCost View Post
    By the liberal logic in this thread why dont you go rock climbing without a safety line, then once you fall you will have proof you CAN fall and need the safety line.

    You dont use the safety line for the 1000 times you dont fall you need it for the 1 time you do.
    Yeah, yeah analogy argument, go piss up a rope, but make sure it isnt your safety line :P
    Since the photo ID requirement doesn't actually prevent the kind of electoral fraud that have been documented, while the potential to discourage voters is higher, the requirement is more analogous to hiring a doctor to go with you in case you injure yourself and need medical care. Again: think of the costs and benefits. The probability of needing a doctor while mountain climbing is probably bigger than the probability of in person voter fraud.

    But then again some people only care about the benefits to themselves and screw the costs to others.
    Quote Originally Posted by Free_Radical View Post

    And I wasn't making an appeal to authority, I was making an appeal to the philosophical body of work of the founders, the worth and content of which should be well-known to anyone with a cursory understanding of basic history and philosophy.

    Brian

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    Re: O'Keefe Voter Fraud Investigation: Young Man Offered Holder's Ballot

    Quote Originally Posted by nonpareil View Post
    Since the photo ID requirement doesn't actually prevent the kind of electoral fraud that have been documented, while the potential to discourage voters is higher, the requirement is more analogous to hiring a doctor to go with you in case you injure yourself and need medical care. Again: think of the costs and benefits. The probability of needing a doctor while mountain climbing is probably bigger than the probability of in person voter fraud.

    But then again some people only care about the benefits to themselves and screw the costs to others.
    How do you know it won't prevent electoral fraud?
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    Re: O'Keefe Voter Fraud Investigation: Young Man Offered Holder's Ballot

    Quote Originally Posted by Caine View Post
    Why should anyone have to walk,drive, ride a bus or a friend to get to the polling place so they can vote?
    A lot of people don't, and instead of finding ways to encourage them to vote, people are saying let's put up more barriers to them voting - a barrier that would not prevent most of the frauds anyway.
    Quote Originally Posted by Free_Radical View Post

    And I wasn't making an appeal to authority, I was making an appeal to the philosophical body of work of the founders, the worth and content of which should be well-known to anyone with a cursory understanding of basic history and philosophy.

    Brian

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    Re: O'Keefe Voter Fraud Investigation: Young Man Offered Holder's Ballot

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    How do you know it won't prevent electoral fraud?
    Because the kind of frauds documented (absentee ballot, false registration) are not the kind to be stopped by photo ID requirement. And even with photo ID requirement, if a person go to the extend of making false registration, why wouldn't they just get a fake ID as well? It's not hard. It's the people who are honest that get stopped because they don't have enough documents, the ID don't meet the requirements, or they plain don't care enough to go to the trouble.
    Quote Originally Posted by Free_Radical View Post

    And I wasn't making an appeal to authority, I was making an appeal to the philosophical body of work of the founders, the worth and content of which should be well-known to anyone with a cursory understanding of basic history and philosophy.

    Brian

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    Re: O'Keefe Voter Fraud Investigation: Young Man Offered Holder's Ballot

    Quote Originally Posted by nonpareil View Post
    Because the kind of frauds documented (absentee ballot, false registration) are not the kind to be stopped by photo ID requirement. And even with photo ID requirement, if a person go to the extend of making false registration, why wouldn't they just get a fake ID as well? It's not hard. It's the people who are honest that get stopped because they don't have enough documents, the ID don't meet the requirements, or they plain don't care enough to go to the trouble.
    So its time to ask you the question also....

    "Just how are statistics like this suppose to be compiled if there is no way to tell if the people voting are who they say they are?"

    I've asked two people this question now and they have either refused to answer or just simply have not posted since I asked it.
    I have an answer for everything...you may not like the answer or it may not satisfy your curiosity..but it will still be an answer. ~ Kal'Stang

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    Re: O'Keefe Voter Fraud Investigation: Young Man Offered Holder's Ballot

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    So its time to ask you the question also....

    "Just how are statistics like this suppose to be compiled if there is no way to tell if the people voting are who they say they are?"

    I've asked two people this question now and they have either refused to answer or just simply have not posted since I asked it.
    Perhaps because the question is based on a false premise. There is a way to tell if the people voting are who they say they are - that's what the registrar's for. If you suspect that an illegal alien is trying to vote, you go back to the registrar and cross reference it with his citizenship status. If a person vote in a different person's name, it's the registrar that will help us determine if a crime has been committed, not a photo ID. In the OP case, Holder can go and point to the registrar and say it's registered in his name with his address and a ballot has been submitted even though he was never there, and conclusively prove that a crime was committed. If the person voting in Holder's name can produce a photo ID that claims he's Holder, it wouldn't make his voting in Holder's name not a crime.
    Quote Originally Posted by Free_Radical View Post

    And I wasn't making an appeal to authority, I was making an appeal to the philosophical body of work of the founders, the worth and content of which should be well-known to anyone with a cursory understanding of basic history and philosophy.

    Brian

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    Re: O'Keefe Voter Fraud Investigation: Young Man Offered Holder's Ballot

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    LMAO so what do you propose? That people be allowed to vote from their home computer? Good god what an insane statement.
    If someone can get a ride to the Polls, Im certain that person can get a ride to the damned DMV.
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    Re: O'Keefe Voter Fraud Investigation: Young Man Offered Holder's Ballot

    This latest coordinated photo voter ID law is their newest effort. Since they have no proof of actual fraud that the law would prevent, they have to work the 'common sense' angle while calling those that currently do not 'qualify' as "lazy" (again, code for welfare, shiftless, = minority).
    Actually this is my point. you point out the other sides stance (voter photo ID law) then ascribe an evil intent to it (depriving minorities of votes)
    On the other side people have pointed out your stance (Voter photo ID not necessary) then ascribe evil intent to it (permitting voter fraud to keep your side in power)

    That was my point! Same story different spin. This is why I like it when US talk radio shows are on same subject. I find it amusing that they automatically assume the other sides stance is based on some sort of nefarious plot.

    Let me try this.

    Karl: If requesting voter ID would cost the state nothing and not disenfranchise people would you still be against it?

    Kal'Stang: Is a seperate voter photo ID card what you are demanding? would a lesser threshold of Identification be acceptable to you?

    *edit* Didn't mean to limit questions to Karl and Kal'Stang. Everyone please feel free to answer either/both questions.
    Last edited by Quag; 04-13-12 at 08:36 AM.

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    Re: O'Keefe Voter Fraud Investigation: Young Man Offered Holder's Ballot

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    Here's a question for you haymarket. Just how are statistics like this suppose to be compiled if there is no way to tell if the people voting are who they say they are?
    You re making a false assumption.



    I have been voting since 1972. Every time I have voted the make sure I am who I say I am. I would estimate I have voted over fifty times in my life and each and every time they have determined I was who I said I was.

    Now that that is out of the way.... will today be the day we get verifiable statistics on voter fraud convictions which establishes we have a significant problem in the first place? Or will the little redhead sing again tonight?
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