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Thread: Solar company bankrupt despite 'win-win' DOE loan

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    Re: Solar company bankrupt despite 'win-win' DOE loan

    Quote Originally Posted by EagleAye View Post
    The only idiotic thing to do is fail to fight back. WE should be the one's exporting the latest and greatest energy technology, not China. Only an idiot would fail to support an industry with so many lucrative contracts around the world. China isn't killing a chance at huge money just to deface one of their political figures. Their going balls out to WIN economically, and that's what we should be doing, not pissing in our own sandbox.
    Fail to fight back against what?

    Other countries will watch the American government waste billions of tax dollars and then, when the technology has reached the point where it's worthwhile purchasing, they will do so.

    This phony race with the Chinese is a way to dupe the poor American tax payer into thinking they must win this race while allowing free private enterprise to fill the void, or the Chinese, is far preferable. Let the Chinese manufacture great solar panels and then copy them, like the Chinese do, or improve on them, like the Japanese do.

    Americans have a truly corrupt government, and far too naives make up phony arguments to support these criminals.
    Last edited by Grant; 04-07-12 at 08:31 PM.

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    Re: Solar company bankrupt despite 'win-win' DOE loan

    Quote Originally Posted by sawyerloggingon View Post
    Now for credit for production of non conventional fuels. You are correct that this is a tax break only oil company's get but it was implemented by the gov for very specific reasons and has done exactly what it was intended to do. Seems fine to me.The Nonconventional Fuels (Section 29) Tax Credit went
    into effect in 1980, following energy shortages and deep
    concern about American dependence on imported oil.
    Congress sought to encourage production of oil and
    natural gas from “nonconventional” sources, such as
    Devonian shale, tight formations, and coalbeds. These
    deposits are unusually expensive to produce.
    The Gas Technology Institute (GTI) studied Section 29’s
    history and projected the impact of an extension of the
    credit on domestic supply. The GTI study concluded that:

    Passage of the original Section 29 led to a tripling in the production of
    nonconventional gas, as well as innovations in drilling and completion
    technology.

    This sounds like the taxpayers are paying out Billions for research and development in the oil industry. Yet when the government does the same for Wind and Solar (and far less for these industries), you guys cry "foul!" You claim that if wind and solar needs so much money to get started then it's not viable anyway. Yet the fully-developed and highly profitable oil industry gets $14.1 billion from the taxpayers every year! And you're okay with that? Sounds like a double-standard.

    Quote Originally Posted by sawyerloggingon View Post
    As for oil and gas exploration and development expenses, that is the same cost of doing business tax breaks we all get in the business world. I just wrote off a new motor for my sawmill, same thing.
    Well if you feel that it makes sense for taxpayers to pay for the cost of running a business, why would you oppose solar companies getting money that helps running a solar business? Why is it acceptable for taxpayers to pay the operating costs of the fully developed oil business, and NOT acceptable for starting a solar business?

    And you didn't address $3.6 Billion subsidy given the highly profitable oil industry. That goes ONLY to the oil industry. It is directly GIVING them money with no need to ever pay it back. Why are we still doing this? Why complain about the burgeoning technologies of Solar energy and EVs getting government help when oil gets far more help?
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    Re: Solar company bankrupt despite 'win-win' DOE loan

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    Fail to fight back against what?

    This phony race with the Chinese is a way to dupe the poor American tax payer into thinking they must win this race while allowing free private enterprise to fill the void, or the Chinese, is far preferable. Let the Chinese manufacture great solar panels and then copy them, like the Chinese do, or improve on them, like the Japanese do.

    Americans have a truly corrupt government, and far too naives make up phony arguments to support these criminals.
    Try to remember that China has the #2 economy in the world. They desperately want to be #1, and they will NOT fight fair to get there. Now while you may think the best thing to do is passively spread your legs and let them rape us, and pretend to like it, I completely disagree. If the Chinese become the #1 economy because we became economic pacifists, you can be sure we'll end up paying for our oil in Chinese Yuan, not dollars. I guarantee you will not be able to pretend liking that.

    Anybody knows that in business the guy who opens a market first is damned difficult to remove once they're already there. Even a superior competing product has a hard time breaking into the same market. Secondly, you think it's a good idea to buy Chinese solar panels for OUR country's lifeblood energy? Are you freakin' kidding me? If you let them OWN the solar industry, you don't think they'll gouge the **** out of us when we finally wake up? You KNOW they will do that.

    There are many countries out there, with Billions in hand ready to give it away. Who cares if Solar cost 3 cents more than oil or 80 cents more than oil? If people want it, give it to them. If I can convince you that a rubber band with a magnet in it will restore your health and vitality (with regular diet and exercise), but it's all in your mind, really. Who cares? Give it to them! Money made is money made. I can't believe that the Communist Chinese have got the whole Capitalism thing worked out better than Americans. It's downright shameful.
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    Re: Solar company bankrupt despite 'win-win' DOE loan

    Quote Originally Posted by EagleAye View Post
    This sounds like the taxpayers are paying out Billions for research and development in the oil industry. Yet when the government does the same for Wind and Solar (and far less for these industries), you guys cry "foul!" You claim that if wind and solar needs so much money to get started then it's not viable anyway. Yet the fully-developed and highly profitable oil industry gets $14.1 billion from the taxpayers every year! And you're okay with that? Sounds like a double-standard.



    Well if you feel that it makes sense for taxpayers to pay for the cost of running a business, why would you oppose solar companies getting money that helps running a solar business? Why is it acceptable for taxpayers to pay the operating costs of the fully developed oil business, and NOT acceptable for starting a solar business?

    And you didn't address $3.6 Billion subsidy given the highly profitable oil industry. That goes ONLY to the oil industry. It is directly GIVING them money with no need to ever pay it back. Why are we still doing this? Why complain about the burgeoning technologies of Solar energy and EVs getting government help when oil gets far more help?
    I responded to all 3 so called subsidies you brought up and you made me work to do it too, I had to Goggle stuff damnit. You bring up subsidizing solar company's vs the alternative fuel tax break oil comps get. The oil company's get a 3 dollar a barrel tax break for non conventional fuel produced in this country whereas solar company's get money handed to them upfront with no guarantee of success. If solar was given tax breaks on a percent of energy they bring to market I would be fine with it. What seems to happen though is solar company's are handed gobs of tax payer dollars as political payoff.

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    Re: Solar company bankrupt despite 'win-win' DOE loan

    Quote Originally Posted by EagleAye View Post
    This sounds like the taxpayers are paying out Billions for research and development in the oil industry. Yet when the government does the same for Wind and Solar (and far less for these industries), you guys cry "foul!" You claim that if wind and solar needs so much money to get started then it's not viable anyway. Yet the fully-developed and highly profitable oil industry gets $14.1 billion from the taxpayers every year! And you're okay with that? Sounds like a double-standard.
    It's for sure the American government has got its fingers in a lot of pies and you seem to approve of that. If they give it to one industry, why not another? Correct?

    Car Company Gets U.S. Loan, Builds Cars In Finland - ABC News

    What's amazing is that OWS are complaining about corruption on Wall Street while the government is bailing out Wall Street and will borrow money from the Chinese to compete with the Chinese. The spin is that it's for the 'working man'.

    The people are $16 trillion in debt, and counting, and will never be in the position of bailing out the elderly, the infirm, etc. The United States is the most indebted nation since money was invented and, incredibly, many Americans seem to like it that way.

    Well if you feel that it makes sense for taxpayers to pay for the cost of running a business, why would you oppose solar companies getting money that helps running a solar business? Why is it acceptable for taxpayers to pay the operating costs of the fully developed oil business, and NOT acceptable for starting a solar business?
    Why not any business? The jobs have to be 'saved', right? And who else can do that but the politicians in Washington?

    And you didn't address $3.6 Billion subsidy given the highly profitable oil industry. That goes ONLY to the oil industry. It is directly GIVING them money with no need to ever pay it back. Why are we still doing this? Why complain about the burgeoning technologies of Solar energy and EVs getting government help when oil gets far more help?
    Yes, why complain about any of it? If one sector is getting public money then they all should. Makes sense, huh?

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    Re: Solar company bankrupt despite 'win-win' DOE loan

    so, 20 grand for solar still on the grid (no storage batteries to buy)... a home improvement guy quoted me 12 for enough to run an air conditioner, but let's use the higher figure just for grins.

    I have friends who have big houses populated by kids and have backyard pools. They tell me their power bills hit $600 a month in the summer time. Of course, that's the most expensive, but let's average it out to half that for the year. That's $3,600 a year in potential savings. Now, being still on the grid, there would still be some costs, so let's say they save 3/4 of that, or $2,400 a year for 10 years. That's a pretty good return on investment, it seems to me. You might make more in the stock market, of course, but then it's likely that you'll still have those solar panels in ten years, and still be saving that $2,400 a year, or more as the cost of power goes up. Sell the house, and the solar panels add to the value.

    Seems pretty financially sound to me.
    "Donald Trump is a phony, a fraud... [he's] playing the American public for suckers." Mitt Romney

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    Re: Solar company bankrupt despite 'win-win' DOE loan

    Quote Originally Posted by sawyerloggingon View Post
    I responded to all 3 so called subsidies you brought up
    And thank you for responding to the three. Well, perhaps the $3.6 Billion subsidy part got buried in the text. I'm not knocking you for missing it, just still interested in your response to it.

    Quote Originally Posted by sawyerloggingon View Post
    ...and you made me work to do it too, I had to Goggle stuff damnit.
    My posts usually take forever to show up 'cause I'm researching stuff. It works out. My wife can watch her chick flick without my snores distracting her.

    Quote Originally Posted by sawyerloggingon View Post
    You bring up subsidizing solar company's vs the alternative fuel tax break oil comps get. The oil company's get a 3 dollar a barrel tax break for non conventional fuel produced in this country whereas solar company's get money handed to them upfront with no guarantee of success. If solar was given tax breaks on a percent of energy they bring to market I would be fine with it. What seems to happen though is solar company's are handed gobs of tax payer dollars as political payoff.
    Can you understand that the Billions paid out to an already profitable oil industry, and written permanently into tax code by Senators, looks an awful lot like a payoff?
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    Re: Solar company bankrupt despite 'win-win' DOE loan

    Quote Originally Posted by Arbo View Post
    Then change it.
    We've tried. The GOP keeps blocking it.


    Do Republicans Realize That Keystone Pipeline Won’t Bring Gas to U.S.?

    At a congressional hearing in December, Markey asked the president of TransCanada if he would agree to allowing Keystone XL oil and its refined products to stay in the U.S. He said no. So Markey then proposed an amendment to that effect, and Republicans said no—that it couldn’t be done, because the market for oil is not just domestic; it’s global. What Canada wants to do, says Markey, “is create a connection between Alberta and Asia and use the United States as the place where the pipeline gets constructed. And so if that’s all we are is a middleman in this transaction, then the American people should know that.”


    "Drill baby Drill" is short for, "Make my campaign donors richer." That is all. It has nothing at all to do with making our lives any better, gas any cheaper, making us energy independent or anything benefiting the USofA.
    Last edited by poweRob; 04-08-12 at 12:14 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moderate Right View Post
    The sad fact is that having a pedophile win is better than having a Democrat in office. I'm all for a solution where a Republican gets in that isn't Moore.

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    Re: Solar company bankrupt despite 'win-win' DOE loan

    Quote Originally Posted by Billy the Kid View Post
    If this is true, the 10 year reliabilty of the panels, it doesn't seem anymore expensive that replacing an HVAC, yes? What is the initial cost? That may be the prohibitive in the equation.

    Heating and cooling your home, which is what most regular folks have to worry about, is a monthly expense. If the original cost of the solar panels were equal to the expense of their current system it should be a no brainer. Why are they not catching on, if this is true?
    Solar panels aren't dirt cheap but they are probably the lower costs of the equation. The big costs are the batteries if you want a battery back-up or an off-grid system then the DC to AC inverter because electricity is generally made in DC form but is transmitted in AC form (DC doesn't travel distances well). Then the solar panels. (and you'll probably have to get a different meter that spins forwards and backwards so that it can meter the energy you use as well as the energy you make.)

    Depending on where you live you can find some great bennies for solarizing. State kick-backs can go in upwards of 50% of the costs. Thing is you have to front the costs then get the 50% back later. Don't know how many are doing that at 50% these days but it does happen. Then a tax rebate also at the fed level sometimes too which helps. In Cali, some companies have plans where they solarize your home and they recoup the costs in later I think from the electric company. Instead of you getting the check from the electric company they take it until it is paid off and the normal solar pv installation pays itself of within 10 years give or take a 2 or three years.

    You gotta be wary and know your state's rules on solar and the electric companies. Some states have it as a law that the electric company has to pay you for the electricity you make. Many states don't have that and then the electric company just screws you. They will let you pay your bill off for the energy you used but then pocket the surplus you made for them with no payout. Or just take your surplus and add it up over the year so that you have a surplus at the end of the year and then zero your account to start the new year... no check at all. Watch yourself on that.
    Last edited by poweRob; 04-08-12 at 12:31 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moderate Right View Post
    The sad fact is that having a pedophile win is better than having a Democrat in office. I'm all for a solution where a Republican gets in that isn't Moore.

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    Re: Solar company bankrupt despite 'win-win' DOE loan

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    Fail to fight back against what?

    Other countries will watch the American government waste billions of tax dollars and then, when the technology has reached the point where it's worthwhile purchasing, they will do so.

    This phony race with the Chinese is a way to dupe the poor American tax payer into thinking they must win this race while allowing free private enterprise to fill the void, or the Chinese, is far preferable. Let the Chinese manufacture great solar panels and then copy them, like the Chinese do, or improve on them, like the Japanese do.

    Americans have a truly corrupt government, and far too naives make up phony arguments to support these criminals.
    What's naive about taking the lead in manufacturing new tech? We did it for generations and its pretty much what put us out in front last century.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moderate Right View Post
    The sad fact is that having a pedophile win is better than having a Democrat in office. I'm all for a solution where a Republican gets in that isn't Moore.

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