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Thread: Solar company bankrupt despite 'win-win' DOE loan

  1. #71
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    Re: Solar company bankrupt despite 'win-win' DOE loan

    Quote Originally Posted by sawyerloggingon View Post
    I have to disagree with you on this one,






    The FBI is investigating what happened with Solyndra, a solar panel company that got a $535 million government-backed loan with the help of the Obama White House over the objections of federal budget analysts.

    Obama and Vice President Joe Biden got a nice photo op. They got to make speeches about being "green." But then Solyndra went bankrupt. Americans lost jobs. Taxpayers got stuck with the bill. And members of Congress are now in high dudgeon and making speeches.

    Federal investigators want to know what role political fundraising played in the guarantee of the questionable loan. Washington bureaucrats warned the deal was lousy. And White House spokesmen flail desperately, like weakened victims in a cheesy vampire movie.

    So forget optics. What about smell? It smells bad, and it's going to smell worse.

    Or, did you really believe it when the White House mouthpieces — who are also Chicago City Hall mouthpieces — promised they were bringing a new kind of politics to Washington?

    This is not a new kind of politics. It's the old kind. The Chicago kind.

    And now the Tribune Washington Bureau has reported that the U.S. Department of Energy employee who helped monitor the Solyndra loan guarantee was one of Obama's top fundraisers.


    Barack Obama's Solyndra scandal smells like it came from Chicago's City Hall - Chicago Tribune



    After Solyndar went under didn't they take these panels, bought by the taxpayer, and dump them? I thought I saw this on the evening news. Give them to a taxpayer who could use them, rather than throw them in the dump. Dose that make sense to anyone?

    Who was it that said" "When I die I want to buried in Chicago so I can continue to vote"? That about sums Chicago politics, don't you think?

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    Re: Solar company bankrupt despite 'win-win' DOE loan

    Quote Originally Posted by sawyerloggingon View Post
    Tell me what tax breaks ONLY the oil industry gets. All I hear about is their massive write offs for investments, that is the same break I get.
    Here you go. This list isn't complete, but it's damning enough.

    The three largest fossil fuel subsidies were:

    Foreign tax credit ($15.3 billion)
    Credit for production of non-conventional fuels ($14.1 billion)
    Oil and Gas exploration and development expensing ($7.1 billion)
    Energy subsidies - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Finding and tallying federal energy subsidies, however, can be fiendishly difficult. Doug Koplow of the energy-consulting firm Earth Track in Cambridge, Mass., is considered one of the nation’s leading experts on the topic.

    He estimates that the US spent between $49 billion and $100 billion on energy subsidies in 2007 – numbers Mr. Koplow says are still accurate if adjusted for inflation. The handouts cover a broad range of activities, from federal loan guarantees and funding for energy research and development to special tax exemptions.

    Here is how the subsidies break down by category, adjusted for inflation, according to Koplow.
    Oil and gas: $41 billion

    President Obama wants Congress to chop $3.6 billion in 2012 oil and gas tax breaks for a total of $46.2 billion over the next decade. Among Mr. Obama’s targets: a nearly century-old oil and gas industry tax deduction for the costs of preparing drill sites and a manufacturer's tax break granted the oil industry in 2004.

    The number is significant, but still little more than one-tenth of the federal subsidies that oil and gas companies might receive over 10 years. Adjusted for inflation, they currently receive about $41 billion in annual subsidies annually. That amounts to more than half – 52 percent – of total benefits distributed to energy sectors by the federal government.
    Budget hawks: Does US need to give gas and oil companies $41 billion a year? - CSMonitor.com

    It looks to me like Chicago politics has got nothing compared to Washington politics when it comes to fleecing the taxpayers.
    Last edited by EagleAye; 04-07-12 at 02:28 PM.
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    Re: Solar company bankrupt despite 'win-win' DOE loan

    Quote Originally Posted by EagleAye View Post
    That would be in-correct. There are many tax breaks that support the petroleum inductry and only the petroleum industry. On top of that, there are other tax breaks where there is an overlap with your industry.
    Also his little logging industry doesn't need his shipping lanes protected by the US Navy. Hidden costs everywhere.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moderate Right View Post
    The sad fact is that having a pedophile win is better than having a Democrat in office. I'm all for a solution where a Republican gets in that isn't Moore.

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    Re: Solar company bankrupt despite 'win-win' DOE loan

    Quote Originally Posted by Billy the Kid View Post
    You know, I've been pretty nice thus far. I've been asking questions and researching material. I don't need attitude, nor being told "That is why", since I've been really interested in this discussion. And I do want to know both sides, since it seems no one has the "right" answers. Even the experts, as I posted pros and cons, don't agree.

    So back off.
    Yes you have been civil. You also didn't address anything I posted at all there. Am I wrong?
    Quote Originally Posted by Moderate Right View Post
    The sad fact is that having a pedophile win is better than having a Democrat in office. I'm all for a solution where a Republican gets in that isn't Moore.

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    Re: Solar company bankrupt despite 'win-win' DOE loan

    Quote Originally Posted by Arbo View Post
    But do subsidies really ever go away?

    I agree EV's are not practical or affordable for most people. I drive a lot to make a living, an EV would not work, not enough duration, not even 1/10 of what I'd need. And the stuff like the Volt is a novelty car for the wealthy at it's price point.

    I see no reason to not open up more drilling, get more of our own oil to cover our own needs, while we await the miracle breakthrough that would make EV's 'better'. If we sit around waiting, we are still purchasing a load of oil that funds 'enemies'. And if and when EV's hit the point they need get to, then we will have all the drilling in place ever needed to get the oil for all the other stuff we use it for.
    Oil we drill does NOT get used here therefore it will not cover any of OUR needs.

    I can't seem to post that enough to sink in to anyone.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moderate Right View Post
    The sad fact is that having a pedophile win is better than having a Democrat in office. I'm all for a solution where a Republican gets in that isn't Moore.

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    Re: Solar company bankrupt despite 'win-win' DOE loan

    Quote Originally Posted by Billy the Kid View Post
    Since you've worked in this area, what is the initial cost to the consumer to have solar panels installed? What is the reliabilty and maintainabilty of these panels?

    I think folks would be more open to going in this direction if it were affordable and they could see a return on their investment. We here about solar panels and never hear about the costs and returns.

    I researched it before for a house I lived in in Phoenix. You are looking at a starting costs anywhere between 20k to 30k or so to begin. Depends on if you are a solar grid tie or a solar off grid system. Off grid means you need to store your own energy and you need a battery backup to hold that energy. Much costs in having your own batter bank. If you are grid-tie that means you still use electricity no different than you do right now right off the grid but the solar system you have is selling electricity back to the electric company at the same time so if you use less than you sell, you could see a check coming your way instead of writing one for the Electric Company.

    Solar panels seem to have warranties often around 10 years at the least and many many more years beyond that for some. The Photovoltaic process never degrades. What does degrade is that the sealed system you need for it to react inside which should take decades and most importantly scratches on the glass that lets the sun go through to make the PV happen. When the glass gets scratched or cloudy and whannot, that is what mostly decreases a PV panel's efficiency.

    I'm thinking what they need to do is like they do in NASCAR where they have their windshields covered in layers of some 3M film and you just pull a tab when they come into pit row and when that top layer is peeled off, it's like a new windshield all over again. Do that to the PV panels. Dust them off throughout the year and then at the end of the year, peel a layer. Another analogy would be the light film added to your smartphone screen. Something like that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moderate Right View Post
    The sad fact is that having a pedophile win is better than having a Democrat in office. I'm all for a solution where a Republican gets in that isn't Moore.

  7. #77
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    Re: Solar company bankrupt despite 'win-win' DOE loan

    Quote Originally Posted by Billy the Kid View Post
    So it seems there will be an up hill battle in this area. On the East Coast there was a plan to put wind thingys in the Atlantic, of course to make it cost effective they needed to be close to the shore, and it was stopped by some "group". They complained about having to see them and interference with sail boats.
    That's the uber rich NIMBY's up in Cape Cod. I haven't kept up with that battle but I think it is still ago to make.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moderate Right View Post
    The sad fact is that having a pedophile win is better than having a Democrat in office. I'm all for a solution where a Republican gets in that isn't Moore.

  8. #78
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    Re: Solar company bankrupt despite 'win-win' DOE loan

    Quote Originally Posted by poweRob View Post
    Oil we drill does NOT get used here therefore it will not cover any of OUR needs.
    Then change it.
    "nah i think the way cons want to turn this into a political issue is funny though" - Philly Boss

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    Re: Solar company bankrupt despite 'win-win' DOE loan

    Quote Originally Posted by poweRob View Post
    I researched it before for a house I lived in in Phoenix. You are looking at a starting costs anywhere between 20k to 30k or so to begin. Depends on if you are a solar grid tie or a solar off grid system. Off grid means you need to store your own energy and you need a battery backup to hold that energy. Much costs in having your own batter bank. If you are grid-tie that means you still use electricity no different than you do right now right off the grid but the solar system you have is selling electricity back to the electric company at the same time so if you use less than you sell, you could see a check coming your way instead of writing one for the Electric Company.

    Solar panels seem to have warranties often around 10 years at the least and many many more years beyond that for some. The Photovoltaic process never degrades. What does degrade is that the sealed system you need for it to react inside which should take decades and most importantly scratches on the glass that lets the sun go through to make the PV happen. When the glass gets scratched or cloudy and whannot, that is what mostly decreases a PV panel's efficiency.

    I'm thinking what they need to do is like they do in NASCAR where they have their windshields covered in layers of some 3M film and you just pull a tab when they come into pit row and when that top layer is peeled off, it's like a new windshield all over again. Do that to the PV panels. Dust them off throughout the year and then at the end of the year, peel a layer. Another analogy would be the light film added to your smartphone screen. Something like that.

    If this is true, the 10 year reliabilty of the panels, it doesn't seem anymore expensive that replacing an HVAC, yes? What is the initial cost? That may be the prohibitive in the equation.

    Heating and cooling your home, which is what most regular folks have to worry about, is a monthly expense. If the original cost of the solar panels were equal to the expense of their current system it should be a no brainer. Why are they not catching on, if this is true?

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    Re: Solar company bankrupt despite 'win-win' DOE loan

    Quote Originally Posted by EagleAye View Post
    Here you go. This list isn't complete, but it's damning enough.


    Energy subsidies - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


    Budget hawks: Does US need to give gas and oil companies $41 billion a year? - CSMonitor.com

    It looks to me like Chicago politics has got nothing compared to Washington politics when it comes to fleecing the taxpayers.
    Lets start with forign tax credits. I earn my money in USA so of course it doesn't apply to me but it applies to anyone earning money overseas not just oil companys.

    "US taxpayers claimed over $90 billion of foreign tax credits on US individual and corporate tax returns in 2005. Foreign tax credits allow US taxpayers to avoid or reduce double taxation. You may choose to take a deduction for foreign taxes paid instead of choosing a credit. In most cases, it is to your advantage to take foreign income taxes as a tax credit."

    Now for credit for production of non conventional fuels. You are correct that this is a tax break only oil company's get but it was implemented by the gov for very specific reasons and has done exactly what it was intended to do. Seems fine to me.The Nonconventional Fuels (Section 29) Tax Credit went
    into effect in 1980, following energy shortages and deep
    concern about American dependence on imported oil.
    Congress sought to encourage production of oil and
    natural gas from “nonconventional” sources, such as
    Devonian shale, tight formations, and coalbeds. These
    deposits are unusually expensive to produce.
    The Gas Technology Institute (GTI) studied Section 29’s
    history and projected the impact of an extension of the
    credit on domestic supply. The GTI study concluded that:

    Passage of the original Section 29 led to a tripling in the production of
    nonconventional gas, as well as innovations in drilling and completion
    technology.






    As for oil and gas exploration and development expenses, that is the same cost of doing business tax breaks we all get in the business world. I just wrote off a new motor for my sawmill, same thing.
    Last edited by sawyerloggingon; 04-07-12 at 08:24 PM.

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