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Thread: Detroit High School Protest: Students Suspended After Demanding 'An Education' (edite

  1. #21
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    Re: What blacks should be protesting: Detroit high students revolt against staff

    I get what Marine is saying. My ancestors were indentured servants (been doing a bit more genealogy) from ireland and that meant slavery forever in some cases. They NEVER could pay off their debt. And look how the irish were treated when they came through ellis island.
    Australians were from debtors prison...sent off to an island in horrible conditions.
    Everyone pulled their bootstraps up and continued on without blaming someone else. They survived. And the Jews? I don't think anything can compare to what they have suffered. No particular group of people can lay claim to "having it the worst".

    Meanwhile..bravo to those students!!

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    Re: What blacks should be protesting: Detroit high students revolt against staff

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    The residual effects of slavery and Jim Crow racism are definitely still with us today. It has only been within the past generation that a significant proportion of black households have been able to accumulate a degree of wealth and transition into the middle and upper classes.

    As for the Jews, it's simply not a good comparison for a variety of historical reasons, not least of which is the fact that the world Jewry as a whole has been able to accumulate wealth and resources for centuries.
    Racism, yes, in some portions of the country is still a problem. Slavery? No way. Slavery ended 150 years ago. Thats plenty of time to recover. Many a Irishman and Italian migrated to this country with little to no education, no knowledge of the English language (Italians), and no prospects. Those races are doing just fine. I'm not claiming to know why the black race hasn't prospered, but I know it can't be blamed on slavery anymore. That's ridiculous. As for the Jewish comparison, don't just think holocaust. Look back further at what that people has been through. Each time adversity came to them, they overcame it. As they still do today.
    “Mr. Speaker, I once again find myself compelled to vote against the annual budget resolution for a very simple reason: it makes government bigger.” ― Ron Paul
    Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of Liberty. – Thomas Jefferson

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    Re: What blacks should be protesting: Detroit high students revolt against staff

    Quote Originally Posted by Enola View Post
    I get what Marine is saying. My ancestors were indentured servants (been doing a bit more genealogy) from ireland and that meant slavery forever in some cases. They NEVER could pay off their debt. And look how the irish were treated when they came through ellis island.
    Australians were from debtors prison...sent off to an island in horrible conditions.
    Everyone pulled their bootstraps up and continued on without blaming someone else. They survived. And the Jews? I don't think anything can compare to what they have suffered. No particular group of people can lay claim to "having it the worst".

    Meanwhile..bravo to those students!!
    All I'm saying is that comparing the plight and history of African-Americans to other minorities in THIS country isn't particularly useful if we're going to go the "well everyone else pulled themselves up by their bootstraps, why can't black people?" route. There are a host of historical, social, and economic reasons why the plight of blacks has been different, and IMHO most of those factors play a much larger role in holding black people back than the so-called victim mentality. Just my $0.02.
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
    - Colonel Paul Yingling

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    Re: What blacks should be protesting: Detroit high students revolt against staff

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    All I'm saying is that comparing the plight and history of African-Americans to other minorities in THIS country isn't particularly useful if we're going to go the "well everyone else pulled themselves up by their bootstraps, why can't black people?" route. There are a host of historical, social, and economic reasons why the plight of blacks has been different, and IMHO most of those factors play a much larger role in holding black people back than the so-called victim mentality. Just my $0.02.
    Don't get me wrong, I'm not accusing anyone of the victim mentality. Im just debating the point with you is all. Like I said, I don't know the reason the black race hasn't improved as fast as other races. Couldn't tell you. But I don't believe we can say slavery is the cause, or even one of the causes, anymore.
    “Mr. Speaker, I once again find myself compelled to vote against the annual budget resolution for a very simple reason: it makes government bigger.” ― Ron Paul
    Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of Liberty. – Thomas Jefferson

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    Re: What blacks should be protesting: Detroit high students revolt against staff

    Quote Originally Posted by MarineTpartier View Post
    Racism, yes, in some portions of the country is still a problem. Slavery? No way. Slavery ended 150 years ago. Thats plenty of time to recover. Many a Irishman and Italian migrated to this country with little to no education, no knowledge of the English language (Italians), and no prospects. Those races are doing just fine. I'm not claiming to know why the black race hasn't prospered, but I know it can't be blamed on slavery anymore. That's ridiculous. As for the Jewish comparison, don't just think holocaust. Look back further at what that people has been through. Each time adversity came to them, they overcame it. As they still do today.
    I suppose it's not accurate to say "it's just slavery." It's the entire legacy of racism and slavery in this country, up to and including the Jim Crow Era, which only ended a generation ago. The European immigrant comparison isn't particularly apt because despite their situation, they didn't suffer institutionalized, overt discrimination over several generations the way blacks have. Historically, there have been economic opportunities there for European immigrants that simply haven't been there for blacks. For instance, it wasn't even until World War II that Officer Candidate School really opened up its ranks to African-Americans.
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
    - Colonel Paul Yingling

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    Re: What blacks should be protesting: Detroit high students revolt against staff

    Quote Originally Posted by MarineTpartier View Post
    Don't get me wrong, I'm not accusing anyone of the victim mentality. Im just debating the point with you is all.
    That's absolutely fine

    Like I said, I don't know the reason the black race hasn't improved as fast as other races. Couldn't tell you. But I don't believe we can say slavery is the cause, or even one of the causes, anymore.
    Yeah I understand where you're coming from. I'm just trying to belabor the point that it isn't simply the slavery that happened 150 years ago. The slavery that happened back then can't be disconnected or disentangled from its own legacy, which resulted in Jim Crow, segregation, institutional discrimination and the like that only really ended in the 60s and 70s, and due to this, black people have only had about a generation or so to really even have a chance at pulling themselves up by their bootstraps and have a chance at some degree of socioeconomic mobility.
    Last edited by StillBallin75; 04-03-12 at 12:50 AM.
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
    - Colonel Paul Yingling

  7. #27
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    Re: What blacks should be protesting: Detroit high students revolt against staff

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    I suppose it's not accurate to say "it's just slavery." It's the entire legacy of racism and slavery in this country, up to and including the Jim Crow Era, which only ended a generation ago. The European immigrant comparison isn't particularly apt because despite their situation, they didn't suffer institutionalized, overt discrimination over several generations the way blacks have. Historically, there have been economic opportunities there for European immigrants that simply haven't been there for blacks. For instance, it wasn't even until World War II that Officer Candidate School really opened up its ranks to African-Americans.
    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    Yeah I understand where you're coming from. I'm just trying to belabor the point that it isn't simply the slavery that happened 150 years ago. The slavery that happened back then can't be disconnected or disentangled from its own legacy, which resulted in Jim Crow, segregation, institutional discrimination and the like that only really ended in the 60s and 70s, and due to this, black people have only had about a generation or so to really even have a chance at pulling themselves up by their bootstraps and have a chance at some degree of socioeconomic mobility.
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Jim Crow laws weren't in effect in northern states were they?
    “Mr. Speaker, I once again find myself compelled to vote against the annual budget resolution for a very simple reason: it makes government bigger.” ― Ron Paul
    Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of Liberty. – Thomas Jefferson

  8. #28
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    Re: What blacks should be protesting: Detroit high students revolt against staff

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    That's absolutely fine



    Yeah I understand where you're coming from. I'm just trying to belabor the point that it isn't simply the slavery that happened 150 years ago. The slavery that happened back then can't be disconnected or disentangled from its own legacy, which resulted in Jim Crow, segregation, institutional discrimination and the like that only really ended in the 60s and 70s, and due to this, black people have only had about a generation or so to really even have a chance at pulling themselves up by their bootstraps.
    It can't be disconnected or disentangled, but when someone is finally given equality of rights, and the environment in which to compete and prosper, they must take the opportunity and use it to better their situation, their communities and their lives as a whole. I believe that much of what holds some of them back is the poverty pimps like Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton keeping things stirred up. At some point, with every human, no matter the race, ethnicity, religion, or whatever you are holding onto as the reason your life is bad, you gotta let the bad **** go. It's like an abused woman who won't let go of her abusive spouse.
    "God is the name by which I designate all things which cross my path violently and recklessly, all things which alter my plans and intentions, and change the course of my life, for better or for worse."
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    Re: What blacks should be protesting: Detroit high students revolt against staff

    Quote Originally Posted by lizzie View Post
    It can't be disconnected or disentangled, but when someone is finally given equality of rights, and the environment in which to compete and prosper, they must take the opportunity and use it to better their situation, their communities and their lives as a whole. I believe that much of what holds some of them back is the poverty pimps like Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton keeping things stirred up. At some point, with every human, no matter the race, ethnicity, religion, or whatever you are holding onto as the reason your life is bad, you gotta let the bad **** go. It's like an abused woman who won't let go of her abusive spouse.
    Oh don't get me wrong, I'm not saying black people have an excuse not to try and make the best out of their situation. Regardless of where one's station in life, it is the responsibility of that individual to, through their own effort, make the best out of whatever situation they were handed. But I think there are perfectly understandable historical explanations for why black people seem to have not been able to achieve what other minorities have, which include slavery and its legacy of institutionalized racism, segregation, and Jim Crow.

    I have to say though that simply being given equal rights legally doesn't translate into de facto equality of opportunity in practice.
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
    - Colonel Paul Yingling

  10. #30
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    Re: What blacks should be protesting: Detroit high students revolt against staff

    Well, I was just using slavery as a quick example. However, today, there are things such as institutionalized racism. Yet overall, I'd say that the main problem isn't racism, but economics.

    EDIT: However, I think most people can agree with the second paragraph in that post.
    Last edited by Mr. Invisible; 04-03-12 at 01:11 AM.
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