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Thread: Kennedy: Individual Mandate Fundamentally Changes Relationship of Govt

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    Re: Kennedy: Individual Mandate Fundamentally Changes Relationship of Govt

    It is fantastic to hear this. It would be even better if it's not a 5-4 Decision to strike the mandate, but I don't think that's going to be likely.
    The way the lib judges coached the attorney for the government, picked him up when he fell down and threw him softball questions I think a 5-4 decision is a forgone conclusion.

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    Re: Kennedy: Individual Mandate Fundamentally Changes Relationship of Govt

    Quote Originally Posted by sawyerloggingon View Post
    The way the lib judges coached the attorney for the government, picked him up when he fell down and threw him softball questions I think a 5-4 decision is a forgone conclusion.
    They really did do that. I have to admit I was somewhat shocked at that.

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    Re: Kennedy: Individual Mandate Fundamentally Changes Relationship of Govt

    Quote Originally Posted by Your Star View Post
    It is still inevitable.
    When democrats manage to get that once-in-a-generation supermajority in the house and senate and whitehouse and own the courts, maybe. But I doubt that's going to happen anytime soon.

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    Re: Kennedy: Individual Mandate Fundamentally Changes Relationship of Govt

    Quote Originally Posted by Your Star View Post
    No it's not, it's really inevitable if this bill gets struck down. The status-quo can't last forever, and change is needed.
    that is true. but I find your belief that "change" means "only in the direction of increased government control" interesting.

    given that in about 10 years we will no longer be able to fund social security and medicare, where do you imagine we are going to get the money to fund UHC?

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    Re: Kennedy: Individual Mandate Fundamentally Changes Relationship of Govt

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    that is true. but I find your belief that "change" means "only in the direction of increased government control" interesting.

    given that in about 10 years we will no longer be able to fund social security and medicare, where do you imagine we are going to get the money to fund UHC?
    Lack of money is but a mere nuisance to the government.

    Ok, seriously, I believe single-payer is an inevitability, also. Don't mistake that as meaning it would be the best option. I didn't say that. I mean the option that I believe will happen.

    I would (hope?) think that single-payer would eliminate medicare, so that would account for part of the funding, but not all of it. But, as I type this another thought jumps in my head that kind of scares me. We might end up with both. Government is loathe to eliminate ANY program, ever, and we usually end up with needless duplication.

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    Re: Kennedy: Individual Mandate Fundamentally Changes Relationship of Govt

    a public option should have been the compromise, not a mandate to buy insurance from for-profit insurance companies.

    it's past time to start looking at what other first world nations are doing about this problem. step one is to uncouple health insurance coverage from employment. then we can consider how many for-profit middlemen we really need between the patient and the healthcare solution.

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    Re: Kennedy: Individual Mandate Fundamentally Changes Relationship of Govt

    Quote Originally Posted by radcen View Post
    Lack of money is but a mere nuisance to the government.
    ..... i will admit, i'm not even sure where to go with this. the inability to actually afford something doesn't mean we can't buy it....

    are you suggesting we will simply print the money, and accept the destruction of wealth inherent in high inflation?

    Ok, seriously, I believe single-payer is an inevitability, also. Don't mistake that as meaning it would be the best option. I didn't say that. I mean the option that I believe will happen.

    I would (hope?) think that single-payer would eliminate medicare, so that would account for part of the funding, but not all of it. But, as I type this another thought jumps in my head that kind of scares me. We might end up with both. Government is loathe to eliminate ANY program, ever, and we usually end up with needless duplication.
    Democrats barely pushed through Obamacare with a supermajority in the Senate, ownership of the House, and the White House. It was a hair-thin vote, they were forced to resort to parliamentary tricks, and many were subsequently relieved of the burden of public service by that a public no longer interested in their services.

    There is simply no way UHC passes. You may get universal subsidization of health insurance in the form of refundable tax credits a'la the Ryan Plan. But Obamacare pretty much established the left lateral limit for the politically possible health care reform.

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    Re: Kennedy: Individual Mandate Fundamentally Changes Relationship of Govt

    Quote Originally Posted by Helix View Post
    step one is to uncouple health insurance coverage from employment.
    in most cases, certainly. but one-size-fits-all typically doesn't.

    then we can consider how many for-profit middlemen we really need between the patient and the healthcare solution.
    for the vast majority of cases, only one - the health care provider. insurance is only feasible for catastrophic costs.

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    Re: Kennedy: Individual Mandate Fundamentally Changes Relationship of Govt

    Here are what I consider the most telling comments from Kennedy:

    “Assume for the moment that this is unprecedented, this is a step beyond what our cases have allowed, the affirmative duty to act to go into commerce. If that is so, do you not have a heavy burden of justification? I understand that we must presume laws are constitutional, but, even so, when you are changing the relation of the individual to the government in this, what we can stipulate is, I think, a unique way, do you not have a heavy burden of justification to show authorization under the Constitution?”

    “I think it is true that, if most questions in life are matters of degree . . . the young person who is uninsured is uniquely proximately very close to affecting the rates of insurance and the costs of providing medical care in a way that is not true in other industries. That’s my concern in the case.”

    Kennedy is not going to strike the law, but he is going to impose a high burden of proof for similar laws in the future, and he is going to make it clear that the healthcare/insurance industry and this particular situation is very unique. I think Roberts may join with him as well.

    JMO.
    (avatar by Thomas Nast)

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    Re: Kennedy: Individual Mandate Fundamentally Changes Relationship of Govt

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    ..... i will admit, i'm not even sure where to go with this. the inability to actually afford something doesn't mean we can't buy it....

    are you suggesting we will simply print the money, and accept the destruction of wealth inherent in high inflation?
    My point was semi-facetious, but in all seriousness I'm not suggesting we do. I am suggesting that saying we can't buy something if we don't have the money would mean more if we didn't have such a history of government deficits and debt. We're obviously not being fiscally responsible as it is.


    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Democrats barely pushed through Obamacare with a supermajority in the Senate, ownership of the House, and the White House. It was a hair-thin vote, they were forced to resort to parliamentary tricks, and many were subsequently relieved of the burden of public service by that a public no longer interested in their services.

    There is simply no way UHC passes. You may get universal subsidization of health insurance in the form of refundable tax credits a'la the Ryan Plan. But Obamacare pretty much established the left lateral limit for the politically possible health care reform.
    You're presuming opinions never change. If the mandate is struck down... as I think it should be, btw... then pretty much nothing changes. If pretty much nothing changes then people will continue to feel stuck. I'm not sure that that "hair-thin" majority was accurately representative of the population as a whole. I believe public sentiment will increase over time and our legislators will feel they have no other choice, regardless how they personally believe.

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