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Thread: Kansas House prayer gets political

  1. #31
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    Re: Kansas House prayer gets political

    Quote Originally Posted by OpportunityCost View Post
    Which maybe addresses 1/3 of what I said. The absurdity of you whining about separation of church and state with regards to a State House prayer is absurd.
    State House prayers are absurd.

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    Re: Kansas House prayer gets political

    Protecting FREE SPEECH and keeping religion out of politics, not controlling religious speech is my objective.
    Religious speech isnt free speech?


    You on the other hand…going back thru your post,Kinda looks like you’re in favor mixing politics with religion. You started out in post #2 stating, “The views he’s putting forth are religious ones as well as political ones. Connecting the dots.
    You want to have your cake and eat it too. You want to restrict what churches talk about and force their works to conform to your political views. They are an affected party, they directly have the right to talk about things that affect them.

    In #4 its this” The absurdity of you whining about separation of church and state with regards to a State House prayer is absurd.”
    Free speech is whole hog, either you have it or you do not, unless it damages another. If you are going to have a State House prayer, you release control over the content or it isnt free.



    Another dot. Post#13 “where you state, “pontificating political positions from the pulpit has been going on for a very long time on both sides “ of course you had several add homs thrown in that post for good measure.
    Characterizing your words is not an ad hom, if you believe differently I urge you to hit the triangle and issue a report. Im going to turn your argument against you now, should primarily black churches be restricted from speaking on civil rights legislation? Its political is it not? I believe your problem is entirely about whose ox is being gored by the speech.


    What could be a better way of keeping religion out of politics than the threat of loosing their tax-exempt status? That would not keep them from expressing their views on a subject but it would keep them from spouting them in taxpayer-supported venues.
    "threats" to free speech are the exact sort of thing that the chilling effect upon it is designed to thwart. Again, Im not a church advocate, Im a speech advocate, whether I like the speech or not. You are free to counter someone's speech with your own, you are not free to prevent them from expressing theirs.

  3. #33
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    Re: Kansas House prayer gets political

    Quote tree

    Protecting FREE SPEECH and keeping religion out of politics, not controlling religious speech is my objective.
    Quote OpportunityCost

    Religious speech isnt free speech?
    Not when politics is in the mix, in a taxpayer supported venue, then it takes on a CORP TAX RATE in tree’s world.

    Quote OpportunityCost

    You want to have your cake and eat it too.
    Strawcake??


    You want to restrict what churches talk about and force their works to conform to your political views.
    Crystal ball?


    They are an affected party, they directly have the right to talk about things that affect them.
    Nothing wrong with talk, just that there is an place for it…when it’s in a state/federal building, with representatives that may or may not agree with the political ax that you happen to be grinding that day, imo is not the appropriate venue.


    Free speech is whole hog, either you have it or you do not, unless it damages another. If you are going to have a State House prayer, you release control over the content or it isnt free.
    GOOD, in trees world, the priest and the flock that he represents just got hit with the CORP tax rate. And not the GE rates, the real world rate.


    Im going to turn your argument against you now, should primarily black churches be restricted from speaking on civil rights legislation? Its political is it not? I believe your problem is entirely about whose ox is being gored by the speech.
    Right back atcha…When did a black pastor that was ask to pray at a state house session start grinding his fav ax?
    The haggardness of poverty is everywhere seen contrasted with the sleekness of wealth, the exhorted labor of some compensating for the idleness of others, wretched hovels by the side of stately colonnades, the rags of indigence blended with the ensigns of opulence; in a word, the most useless profusion in the midst of the most urgent wants.Jean-Baptiste Say

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    Re: Kansas House prayer gets political

    Quote Originally Posted by treedancer View Post
    Not when politics is in the mix, in a taxpayer supported venue, then it takes on a CORP TAX RATE in tree’s world.
    The venue is irrelevant, speech rights are not restricted by location. Thats in the real world.



    I edited out your snark. Im giving your posts respect, grant me the same courtesy.



    Nothing wrong with talk, just that there is an place for it…when it’s in a state/federal building, with representatives that may or may not agree with the political ax that you happen to be grinding that day, imo is not the appropriate venue.
    "Appropriate" is another way of saying censoring.




    GOOD, in trees world, the priest and the flock that he represents just got hit with the CORP tax rate. And not the GE rates, the real world rate.
    Why? Because he commented on religious issues that are also political issues? Because they are religious issues as well. You want to silence religious speech because it is also, in part, political. But if a church representative cannot speck on religious matters, as defined by a secular government, is their speech not being restricted in their bailiwick?




    Right back atcha…When did a black pastor that was ask to pray at a state house session start grinding his fav ax?
    Guess thats the difference between you and me, his speech should be protected and it does touch on the religious as well as the political and should be respected as such. I have no desire to restrict his speech, but if you were consistent, you would. Proving that its about the political views being espoused for you and not the speech itself.

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    Re: Kansas House prayer gets political

    QUOTE OpportunityCost

    Guess thats the difference between you and me, his speech should be protected and it does touch on the religious as well as the political and should be respected as such.


    True, I believe in what a rural preacher said a couple of K years ago.

    "Render therefore unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and unto God the things that are God's,"

    the First Amendment of our Constitution says it a bit differently "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."

    On the other hand,you seem quite content with letting the camel of religion poke its nose in our governmental tent, under the guise of FREEDOM OF SPEECH.



    I have no desire to restrict his speech, but if you were consistent, you would.
    Where do you get the idea that i want to restrict speech?


    Proving that its about the political views being espoused for you and not the speech itself.

    Strange how you keep dancing around and taking out of context what I have posted…repeatedly. The ole obtuse defenses eh?
    Last edited by Donc; 03-24-12 at 04:27 PM.
    The haggardness of poverty is everywhere seen contrasted with the sleekness of wealth, the exhorted labor of some compensating for the idleness of others, wretched hovels by the side of stately colonnades, the rags of indigence blended with the ensigns of opulence; in a word, the most useless profusion in the midst of the most urgent wants.Jean-Baptiste Say

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    Re: Kansas House prayer gets political

    Where do you get the idea that i want to restrict speech?
    Because you keep saying you are.

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    Re: Kansas House prayer gets political

    Quote Originally Posted by OpportunityCost View Post
    Because you keep saying you are.
    Point this ole man in the direction that he said he said he wants to "restrict speech ".
    The haggardness of poverty is everywhere seen contrasted with the sleekness of wealth, the exhorted labor of some compensating for the idleness of others, wretched hovels by the side of stately colonnades, the rags of indigence blended with the ensigns of opulence; in a word, the most useless profusion in the midst of the most urgent wants.Jean-Baptiste Say

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    Re: Kansas House prayer gets political

    If you are going to be this dishonest, Im done with you. You have argued throughout the thread that the prayer should touch on nothing political, including things that can affect a church directly and are moral issues that churches also have to deal with. The issues mentioned in the prayer are moral ones, as well as political ones.

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    Re: Kansas House prayer gets political

    Quote Originally Posted by OpportunityCost View Post
    If you are going to be this dishonest, Im done with you. You have argued throughout the thread that the prayer should touch on nothing political, including things that can affect a church directly and are moral issues that churches also have to deal with. The issues mentioned in the prayer are moral ones, as well as political ones.


    When ask to give a prayer in taxpayer-supported venues, damn right, I expect that they should be held to not poppen off on whatever ax they’re grinding at the moment. If you consider that restricting speech then the “ dishonestly” in on your lap, not mine.
    The haggardness of poverty is everywhere seen contrasted with the sleekness of wealth, the exhorted labor of some compensating for the idleness of others, wretched hovels by the side of stately colonnades, the rags of indigence blended with the ensigns of opulence; in a word, the most useless profusion in the midst of the most urgent wants.Jean-Baptiste Say

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    Re: Kansas House prayer gets political

    Quote Originally Posted by treedancer View Post
    When ask to give a prayer in taxpayer-supported venues, damn right, I expect that they should be held to not poppen off on whatever ax they’re grinding at the moment. If you consider that restricting speech then the “ dishonestly” in on your lap, not mine.
    So what youre saying is you want to restrict speech :P
    Got it.

    Limiting expression because its controversial is not a reason its a rationalization. Abortion is a moral religious issue just as much as it is political one. Why cant he speak about it? The fact that its a tax payer supported venue is completely beside the point, you either ban religious speech completely or you leave it completely alone---trying to find a middle ground is just hypocritical. Ban it completely or leave it completely alone and let the invites work as a limiting factor, the politicians in the congressional body will make decisions on whats over the line and what isnt.

    Restricting someone's speech because you do not like it is not a valid reason to silence it. Controversy is not a reason to silence it. Whats that leave? You think its too political? Or you think its too critical of your views?

    Ill repeat my position over again, ban it completely or leave it alone completely. Whats your position? Control his speech? Well, looky-looky, thats censorship.

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