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Thread: Kansas House prayer gets political

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    Re: Kansas House prayer gets political

    Quote Originally Posted by treedancer View Post
    You consider self-censoring is a method of control? When Father Gordon was told beforehand, by the person that invited him to say the opening prayer and keep his politics out of it? Amazing.


    I reiterate my opening statement. "This political attack, by Father Gordon, should warrant a look into the church’s tax-exempt status".

    If CHURCHES wants to make political statements like CORP people lets tax them at the CORP rate.
    Hes still undoubtedly representing a church. Again, I feel, the reason you want his speech controlled in the venue is because you do not agree with it. Attacking the tax exempt status makes it even worse, if that isnt presenting a chilling effect on free speech and freedom of religion, I dont know what is. As far as I know if political speech was all it took to revoke tax exempt status, Westboro would have been done ages ago, to take the most extreme example I can think of.

    Censoring of any sort, by its definition is control. Im not sure how you define censoring without using the word control when it refers to speech.

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    Re: Kansas House prayer gets political

    i really just think hes butthurt over religion and doesnt want anyone to enjoy it cuz he dont.

    politics should not be in a prayer,but saying prayer within government is wrong in itself is wrong.the military has prayers led by chaplains before every mission.
    “[The metric system is the tool of the Devil! My car gets forty rods to the hogshead, and that’s the way I likes it!” – Abe “Grampa” Simpson”

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    Re: Kansas House prayer gets political

    QUOTE OpportunityCost

    Hes still undoubtedly representing a church.
    True. Giving that church a bad name in the process.

    Again, I feel, the reason you want his speech controlled in the venue is because you do not agree with it.

    Better clean the fog off of the ole crystal ball then. Where do you get the idea that I want to control Father Gordon’s speech? Didn’t say anything about limiting his “speech” just want him to limit his political rants to wherever he feels he has a like-minded audience, be it pulpit,or a park bench In Pershing Square, wherever.

    But not before Representatives of people,(when ask to give a prayer) that don’t necessarily believe as he does. It’s best given in the friendly confines of his church, where people are free to walk out (are grab a quick nap) if they don’t agree with the message.



    Attacking the tax exempt status makes it even worse, if that isnt presenting a chilling effect on free speech and freedom of religion, I dont know what is. As far as I know if political speech was all it took to revoke tax exempt status,

    There already is a law in place here.check it out, I believe that you will see that implies that if anyone wanted to counter Father Gordon’s rants, before a captive audience, they could demand equel time; on the taxpayer’s dime, of course.


    Westboro would have been done ages ago, to take the most extreme example I can think of.

    I don’t have a problem about taxing Westboro…but they have not had been ask to give opening prayer…but if they were I would be willing pay an exorbitant ticket price for admission and bring a big ass bag of popcorn with me.


    Im not sure how you define censoring without using the word control when it refers to speech.

    Putting them (wesboro) in a confined, outa the way place is control; duck taping their mouths shut is censoring them.
    The haggardness of poverty is everywhere seen contrasted with the sleekness of wealth, the exhorted labor of some compensating for the idleness of others, wretched hovels by the side of stately colonnades, the rags of indigence blended with the ensigns of opulence; in a word, the most useless profusion in the midst of the most urgent wants.Jean-Baptiste Say

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    Re: Kansas House prayer gets political

    Quote Originally Posted by treedancer View Post
    True. Giving that church a bad name in the process.
    Personal opinion, snarky irrelevance that doesnt make your case.


    Better clean the fog off of the ole crystal ball then. Where do you get the idea that I want to control Father Gordon’s speech? Didn’t say anything about limiting his “speech” just want him to limit his political rants to wherever he feels he has a like-minded audience, be it pulpit,or a park bench In Pershing Square, wherever.
    Political "rants" are speech. You call them political rants because you do not agree with them. You are really good at being disingenuous and tipping your hand at the same time.

    But not before Representatives of people,(when ask to give a prayer) that don’t necessarily believe as he does. It’s best given in the friendly confines of his church, where people are free to walk out (are grab a quick nap) if they don’t agree with the message.
    The legislature is a public forum. Legislators are still free to leave and furthermore and able to control the content by being choosy with the invites.


    There already is a law in place here.check it out, I believe that you will see that implies that if anyone wanted to counter Father Gordon’s rants, before a captive audience, they could demand equel time; on the taxpayer’s dime, of course.
    Nope, read all 21 situations outlined. Didnt see an equal time clause for invited guests to a state legislature. Maybe you could give the exact example.

    I don’t have a problem about taxing Westboro…but they have not had been ask to give opening prayer…but if they were I would be willing pay an exorbitant ticket price for admission and bring a big ass bag of popcorn with me.
    Public forum, public speech. The only rules are those of the legislature and enforceable by not inviting the guest back.


    Putting them (wesboro) in a confined, outa the way place is control; duck taping their mouths shut is censoring them.
    If you limit their speech forums, you must limit all other groups attempting to speack in those forums. Equal protection under the law. Confining the places they and only they may speak is censorship.

    You have to protect speech you dont like as equally as you do the speech you do like. Some would say even more so. The speech problem is self correcting, the legislature wont invite him back if they dont like his speech. Revoking his church's 501c is an overstep. Right now, churchs' ability to engage in charitable works and mainting the tenets of the church is being affected by political decisions, they are an affected party and have the right to speak on it. You have the right to be offended, you do not have the right to shut him up unless and until you are injured by the speech. Toughen up. He said something you didnt like. Tough. Free speech is like that.

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    Re: Kansas House prayer gets political

    Quote Originally Posted by treedancer View Post
    Looks to me like the church is sticking its nose in where is doesn’t belong. Don’t mistake me for someone that supports abortion, but I am definitely for keeping religion out of politics.

    This political attack, by Father Gordon, should warrant a look into the church’s tax-exempt status.



    < Topeka — A prayer to open the House session on Thursday included comments about abortion, same-sex marriage and religious freedom. >


    < "We ask you to strengthen our understanding of traditional marriage: one man and one woman. >


    < We ask you to bring us back to virtuous morals in society, morals that kept us from killing a child in the womb through abortion. >


    Kansas House prayer gets political / LJWorld.com
    And so, that's Kansas!
    “The people do no want virtue; but they are the dupes of pretended patriots” : Elbridge Gerry of Mass; Constitutional Convention 1787

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    Re: Kansas House prayer gets political

    Quote Originally Posted by treedancer View Post
    Looks to me like the church is sticking its nose in where is doesn’t belong. Don’t mistake me for someone that supports abortion, but I am definitely for keeping religion out of politics.

    This political attack, by Father Gordon, should warrant a look into the church’s tax-exempt status.



    < Topeka — A prayer to open the House session on Thursday included comments about abortion, same-sex marriage and religious freedom. >


    < "We ask you to strengthen our understanding of traditional marriage: one man and one woman. >


    < We ask you to bring us back to virtuous morals in society, morals that kept us from killing a child in the womb through abortion. >


    Kansas House prayer gets political / LJWorld.com
    Considering the religious nature of the church and family i was raised in: I think what's actually strange is that churches have kept a lid on their view to avoid paying some taxes. I think churches have sold their selves out for some savings and apparently they've suffered for it.

    If I had to keep my opinions to myself to avoid paying taxes - I'd be shelling out dough left and right like Sam on ICarly.
    A screaming comes across the sky.
    It has happened before, but there is nothing to compare it to now.
    Pynchon - Gravity's Rainbow

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    Re: Kansas House prayer gets political

    Quote Originally Posted by OpportunityCost View Post
    If you limit their speech forums, you must limit all other groups attempting to speack in those forums. Equal protection under the law. Confining the places they and only they may speak is censorship.

    You have to protect speech you dont like as equally as you do the speech you do like. Some would say even more so. The speech problem is self correcting, the legislature wont invite him back if they dont like his speech. Revoking his church's 501c is an overstep. Right now, churchs' ability to engage in charitable works and mainting the tenets of the church is being affected by political decisions, they are an affected party and have the right to speak on it. You have the right to be offended, you do not have the right to shut him up unless and until you are injured by the speech. Toughen up. He said something you didnt like. Tough. Free speech is like that.

    Protecting FREE SPEECH and keeping religion out of politics, not controlling religious speech is my objective.


    You on the other hand…going back thru your post,Kinda looks like you’re in favor mixing politics with religion. You started out in post #2 stating, “The views he’s putting forth are religious ones as well as political ones. Connecting the dots.

    In #4 its this” The absurdity of you whining about separation of church and state with regards to a State House prayer is absurd.”



    Another dot. Post#13 “where you state, “pontificating political positions from the pulpit has been going on for a very long time on both sides “ of course you had several add homs thrown in that post for good measure.


    What could be a better way of keeping religion out of politics than the threat of loosing their tax-exempt status? That would not keep them from expressing their views on a subject but it would keep them from spouting them in taxpayer-supported venues.
    The haggardness of poverty is everywhere seen contrasted with the sleekness of wealth, the exhorted labor of some compensating for the idleness of others, wretched hovels by the side of stately colonnades, the rags of indigence blended with the ensigns of opulence; in a word, the most useless profusion in the midst of the most urgent wants.Jean-Baptiste Say

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    Re: Kansas House prayer gets political

    Quote Originally Posted by Aunt Spiker View Post
    Considering the religious nature of the church and family i was raised in: I think what's actually strange is that churches have kept a lid on their view to avoid paying some taxes. I think churches have sold their selves out for some savings and apparently they've suffered for it.

    If I had to keep my opinions to myself to avoid paying taxes - I'd be shelling out dough left and right like Sam on ICarly.

    That’s why some churches (mine) refuse any and all federal money because of the strings attached to it.
    The haggardness of poverty is everywhere seen contrasted with the sleekness of wealth, the exhorted labor of some compensating for the idleness of others, wretched hovels by the side of stately colonnades, the rags of indigence blended with the ensigns of opulence; in a word, the most useless profusion in the midst of the most urgent wants.Jean-Baptiste Say

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    Re: Kansas House prayer gets political

    My state is sooo stupid.


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    Re: Kansas House prayer gets political

    Quote Originally Posted by treedancer View Post
    That’s why some churches (mine) refuse any and all federal money because of the strings attached to it.
    I think it's funny that a lot of people seem void of the knowledge that the only reason why there's any such 'separation' is so churches qualify for a tax break. . . it's apparent that this has been the 'default norm' for so long that people assumed it was just outrightly unethical, at least - or even illegal perhaps?
    A screaming comes across the sky.
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