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Marines forced to disarm before meeting secdef panetta

double post.......
 
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MarineTpartier said:
Did you read the OP?
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VanceMack said:
Unless I'm missing it, the first time Obamas name was mentioned with regard to 'blame' was post 81. Might want to check it and see what that suggests...about you.
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Here's what I read in the OP. You tell me where the buck stops in your opinion.
The level of distrust shown to the Marines that wanted to meet SECDEF Panetta is just another in a long line of disrespectful moves towards our military by the current administration.
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And what else is included in the long line of disrespectful moves?
 
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Hikertrash said:
Here's what I read in the OP. You tell me where the buck stops in your opinion.


And what else is included in the long line of disrespectful moves?
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Show me where people blamed Obama. If of course you can overlook all the military folks that blamed the general. Or are YOU just ACHING to blame Obama?
 
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Hikertrash said:
And what else is included in the long line of disrespectful moves?
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Feb 2012- Obama proposes cuts in military TRICARE
Feb 4 2010- Obama pronounces Navy Corpsman (coreman) as Navy Corpseman. Kinda big considering Corpsman care for wounded Marines.
August 15th, 2011- During a "dignified transfer" at Dover Air Force Base of the remains of 30 dead servicemembers, a White House photographer takes pictures of the ceremony and posts them on the White House homepage as the "Pic of the Day". This despite the fact that 19 of the 30 families objected to photographs. The policy is, if a majority object, no photos are taken due to the fact that the coffins of those that object may end up in the pictures of the other coffins.
Would you like me to keep going?
 
MarineTpartier said:
Feb 2012- Obama proposes cuts in military TRICARE
Feb 4 2010- Obama pronounces Navy Corpsman (coreman) as Navy Corpseman. Kinda big considering Corpsman care for wounded Marines.
August 15th, 2011- During a "dignified transfer" at Dover Air Force Base of the remains of 30 dead servicemembers, a White House photographer takes pictures of the ceremony and posts them on the White House homepage as the "Pic of the Day". This despite the fact that 19 of the 30 families objected to photographs. The policy is, if a majority object, no photos are taken due to the fact that the coffins of those that object may end up in the pictures of the other coffins.
Would you like me to keep going?
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Firstly, a White House photographer posting on the White House website is NOT the President. What do you want him to do, monitor Whitehouse.gov for pictures, maybe personally write the blogs and take the pictures himself?
Secondly, word pronunciation? Jesus Christ, how is that an issue?

Lastly, he didn't propose Cuts in Tricare. What he proposed was raising the out of pocket costs for Tricare, specifically pharmacy costs for drugs would increase a bit as well as payments by those retired service members using tricare who are in the Tricare for Life program and are over 65. Why? Tricare faces the same problems as Social Security and Medicare, costs are increasing far beyond income at a time of serious debt for the US government, BUT Tricare still remains one of the best health care resources in the country with the lowest costs.

Obama plan calls for new Tricare fee hikes - Army News | News from Afghanistan & Iraq - Army Times
 
MarineTpartier said:
It also means,
Idiom
8. play politics,
a. to engage in political intrigue, take advantage of a political situation or issue, resort to partisan politics, etc.; exploit a political system or political relationships.
b. to deal with people in an opportunistic, manipulative, or devious way, as for job advancement.
Politics | Define Politics at Dictionary.com
Clearly this is not what the SECDEF is supposed to do. Also, I will be more clear in my use of the word "politics" next time. Funny how you were the only guy who found issue with my usage of that word though.
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Well, the SecDef does that too. How else do you think he convinces others to maintain the largest military in the world? And the spending for it?

MarineTpartier said:
See definition above. Obama tends to practice that defintion of politics more than the definition you put forth. Also, and this is just me, I believe that all politicians weight the "political" backlash with every appointment they make. Example, Hillary Clintion. Obama was criticized as being smarmy and condescending towards her during the campaign. In addition, her husband is a champion for the Dem Party. It was a political win for him as well as the fact he thought she'd do a good job.
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So why did he appoint her? Was it because of the political ramifications of doing so or because she would do a good job as Secretary of State?

And if you don't think that Hillary Clinton hasn't been advising Obama on politics you're even more naive than I thought.

MarineTpartier said:
They are political in the sense I described above. Not, I believe, in the way you describe. I believe the offices I described are the most unaffected by partisanship. They do, for the most part, what is right by the people. When they don't, they get hammered like AG Holder is right now. He has delved into the politics I describe is now lauded by both parties.
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Just because there is one word for something does not mean that that word has one definition. I am right in that Cabinet Secretaries are political appointments in that they execute and help determine policy.

After all, if the SecDef is not a political office, then what kind of office is it? It's not a military one, as I pointed out that those with military commissions cannot be appointed until after 7 years. Yes, it's an appointed office - but that just describes how the office is filled, not what they actually do.

And all these appointments practice politics in the terms you use as well. There's no prohibition in the Constitution that prevents them from doing otherwise, after all.

MarineTpartier said:
I agree with you. It isn't his primary responsibility and I never said it was. I simply said he is overall responsible for it, which he is.
(C) include a description of the means by which the Department of Defense will maintain the capability to reconstitute or expand the defense capabilities and programs of the armed forces of the United States on short notice to meet a resurgent or increased threat to the national security of the United States;
(D) reflect, in the overall assessment and in the strategic and regional assessments, the defense capabilities and programs of the armed forces of the United States specified in the budget submitted to Congress under section 1105 of title 31 in the year in which the report is submitted and in the five-year defense program submitted in such year; and
(E) identify the deficiencies in the defense capabilities of the armed forces of the United States in such budget and such five-year defense program.
10 USC § 113 - Secretary of Defense | LII / Legal Information Institute
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And it doesn't say anywhere that they can't make policies that will somehow piss off the servicemen, such as ordering marines to disarm to maintain civility in a meeting with Afghanis.
 
Wiseone said:
Lastly, he didn't propose Cuts in Tricare. What he proposed was raising the out of pocket costs for Tricare, specifically pharmacy costs for drugs would increase a bit as well as payments by those retired service members using tricare who are in the Tricare for Life program and are over 65. Why? Tricare faces the same problems as Social Security and Medicare, costs are increasing far beyond income at a time of serious debt for the US government, BUT Tricare still remains one of the best health care resources in the country with the lowest costs.

Obama plan calls for new Tricare fee hikes - Army News | News from Afghanistan & Iraq - Army Times
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Yeah, if he's pissed that Tricare is demanding soldiers pay for more for their healthcare then he should be pissed at the GOP for not raising more tax revenue to pay for it, not at Obama because he's trying to manage the federal government as best as he can.
 
VanceMack said:
Show me where people blamed Obama. If of course you can overlook all the military folks that blamed the general. Or are YOU just ACHING to blame Obama?
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I quoted where MarineT blamed the current administration and then he went on and named Obama in another post and leveled more ridiculous charges, answered quite nicely by the Wiseone. You connect the dots.
 
beerftw said:
dont see where marines need to be disarmed,senators have visited various posts in afghanistan,general petraeus visits all the posts and eats with all the soldiers,but maybe all of them trusted the soldiers more than they did the local population.

but then again obama during his speach after the fort hood shooting had secret service search all soldiers who came to view his speech,so if obama is deadly afraid of unarmed soldiers its no surprise someone would be scared of them when they were armed.


btw obama for his fort hood shooting speack had a wall built around the field made of steel connexes stacked on eachother,if requiring a steel barricade to talk to his own people doesnt say scared nothing does.
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Perhaps Obama should disarm the Secret Servie. You never can tell, one of them might get itchy.
 
samsmart said:
Yeah, if he's pissed that Tricare is demanding soldiers pay for more for their healthcare then he should be pissed at the GOP for not raising more tax revenue to pay for it, not at Obama because he's trying to manage the federal government as best as he can.
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Is the DoD not getting all the money they ask for? I think they have been. Who is suggesting cuts to defense? I think you know.
 
samsmart said:
Yeah, if he's pissed that Tricare is demanding soldiers pay for more for their healthcare then he should be pissed at the GOP for not raising more tax revenue to pay for it, not at Obama because he's trying to manage the federal government as best as he can.
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Funny how it's OK to cut bennies for the military, but the teachers unions, et al, in states where they are going broke paying union healthcare, is a no go. What's wrong with this picture?
 
Manc Skipper said:
It's not like there haven't been troops running amok lately, and somebody welcomed him in country by driving a blazing car onto the runway when he landed. You can see why the possibility of a firefight in the hall didn't appeal.
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"troops running amok"?


Really?


/facepalm
 
Wiseone said:
Firstly, a White House photographer posting on the White House website is NOT the President. What do you want him to do, monitor Whitehouse.gov for pictures, maybe personally write the blogs and take the pictures himself?
Secondly, word pronunciation? Jesus Christ, how is that an issue?
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Have you seen the pics from that ceremony? Pres Obama posed for the pics. By posing, it means he knew about them. By knowing about them, he deliberately disrespected the families of dead American servicemen just for a photo op. Regardless of whether they get posted on the WH website or just go into his personal collection. The families requested no photos of their DEAD husbands, sons, fathers and he did it anyway. You gonna tell me he didn't know that pictures where being taken by looking at the photo below?
obama-dover.jpg
Obama goes out of his way to make sure he pronounces foreign countries names correctly (Pak-ee-stan vice the way most Americans say it incorrectly Pak-eh-stan) but he can't same the name of his own countries military billets correctly. Don't believe me? Check out this article on Politico written BEFORE he screwed up the name Corpsman. The date above the article says 2010 but if you look at the publish date by the authors name it is 7/3/09.
Barack Obama, a stickler for pronunciation - Carol E. Lee - POLITICO.com
Corpseman, especially in the setting he said it in, was a big deal. He's speaking of a man laying on a gurney and calls him a Corpseman. Awesome.
Wiseone said:
Lastly, he didn't propose Cuts in Tricare. What he proposed was raising the out of pocket costs for Tricare, specifically pharmacy costs for drugs would increase a bit as well as payments by those retired service members using tricare who are in the Tricare for Life program and are over 65. Why? Tricare faces the same problems as Social Security and Medicare, costs are increasing far beyond income at a time of serious debt for the US government, BUT Tricare still remains one of the best health care resources in the country with the lowest costs.

Obama plan calls for new Tricare fee hikes - Army News | News from Afghanistan & Iraq - Army Times
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I stand corrected about cuts. I did mean he increased fees.
Anyway, I have a hard time seeing how you, as a vet, don't see a problem with a POTUS sending troops to war but at the same time making them pay more for their medical coverage. In case you didn't realize it, those increases are going to hit the guys he's sending over to get maimed and destroyed by IEDs at some point. I have Traumatic Brain Injury, PTSD, and nerve damage in both ears from IED and grenade blasts. So now, all of the medical care I'm going to require from the injuries I sustained going to war in countries he ordered me to go to is going to cost me even more than it would have. Yep, he's a regular patriot. Meanwhile, it only saves 11 billion over 10 years. I can think of quite a few programs we could cut instead of military friggin Tricare to get those kind of savings. Obama doesn't do everything wrong. I'm not one of those guys who thinks Obama wakes up screwing the country. But I do believe he shows a lack of respect to the military on a regular basis. Cutting military funding and troops? I have no problem with some cuts. Retirement reform? I have no issue with that either. Not in the way that was proposed but I am willing to give up some retirement benefits for the good of the country. Medical? That's the last thing he should be proposing cuts to on the DOD side of the house. Especially with what we know now as far as PTSD, TBI, etc. I don't use this word lightly, but I think its unpatriotic.
 
samsmart said:
Well, the SecDef does that too. How else do you think he convinces others to maintain the largest military in the world? And the spending for it?



So why did he appoint her? Was it because of the political ramifications of doing so or because she would do a good job as Secretary of State?

And if you don't think that Hillary Clinton hasn't been advising Obama on politics you're even more naive than I thought.



Just because there is one word for something does not mean that that word has one definition. I am right in that Cabinet Secretaries are political appointments in that they execute and help determine policy.

After all, if the SecDef is not a political office, then what kind of office is it? It's not a military one, as I pointed out that those with military commissions cannot be appointed until after 7 years. Yes, it's an appointed office - but that just describes how the office is filled, not what they actually do.

And all these appointments practice politics in the terms you use as well. There's no prohibition in the Constitution that prevents them from doing otherwise, after all.



And it doesn't say anywhere that they can't make policies that will somehow piss off the servicemen, such as ordering marines to disarm to maintain civility in a meeting with Afghanis.
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Okay, a few things we need to get straight.
1) We are speaking of politics in very different lights. You are speaking of it in terms of setting policies. That is a correct definition. However, I am speaking of it in terms of the way most of our politicians practice it. The definitions we gave for the way we're viewing the word politics in this debate is the origin of our debate and a rather fruitless one. Essentially, you are talking about futbol and I'm talking about football. Same pronunciation, very different meanings.
2) I agree with you that the offices I speak of do set policies. The point I am making is the the SECDEF, SecState, etc do not normally engage in the version of politics I am speaking of. The public smears, shots at the other side, shady fund raising, superpacs, etc. Thats what I mean by politicis in the way I am using it.
3) Is the SECDEF, or is he not responsible for voicing the concerns of the military? I can answer that for you. Yes, he is. And you know he is. So lets stop arguing over something that you are obviously disagreeing with me about just for the sake of disagreeing. Its a moot point, one that I've proven, one that you have tried to half-heartedly agree with only because you know you're wrong but don't want to cede a point, and one that I am tired of arguing because I can't provide any better proof than posting the guys responsibilities directly for US law. Wait, I did that already.
 
samsmart said:
Yeah, if he's pissed that Tricare is demanding soldiers pay for more for their healthcare then he should be pissed at the GOP for not raising more tax revenue to pay for it, not at Obama because he's trying to manage the federal government as best as he can.
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You know, I was enjoying intelligent debate with you until I saw this. This is partisan hackery at its finest. Do we really need to go into tax cuts? How many times has the POTUS signed payroll tax cuts? Hasn't he signed off on Bush tax cuts over and over? Last time I checked, the House of Representatives couldn't pass tax cuts on their own. It required the Dem controlled Senate and that guy you are defending so vehemently (and inaccurately) to get them approved. I could get smarmy with you but I won't. I'm not wasting good smack on an obvious partisan hack. And your lean says other. LOL!
 
Hikertrash said:
I quoted where MarineT blamed the current administration and then he went on and named Obama in another post and leveled more ridiculous charges, answered quite nicely by the Wiseone. You connect the dots.
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Translation: (italics means we are actually inside of Hikertrash's brain listening to his thought process. Bet you didn't know that little button up there could do that huh?) Wiseone you got this because I've got nothing. I'm in the tank for Obama and I don't know why but you sound smarter than me so I'll sit back and watch. But, if its okay with you, I'll going to throw in one or two sentence posts from time to time just to save face and stir the pot.
Yep, that sounds about right.
 
Hikertrash said:
I quoted where MarineT blamed the current administration and then he went on and named Obama in another post and leveled more ridiculous charges, answered quite nicely by the Wiseone. You connect the dots.
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Which administration would you say Leon Panetta is serving in? Regardless...who made the order? Who issued it? Who is given the blame by people here that have actually served?
 
MarineTpartier said:
Have you seen the pics from that ceremony? Pres Obama posed for the pics. By posing, it means he knew about them. By knowing about them, he deliberately disrespected the families of dead American servicemen just for a photo op. Regardless of whether they get posted on the WH website or just go into his personal collection. The families requested no photos of their DEAD husbands, sons, fathers and he did it anyway. You gonna tell me he didn't know that pictures where being taken by looking at the photo below?
View attachment 67124167
Obama goes out of his way to make sure he pronounces foreign countries names correctly (Pak-ee-stan vice the way most Americans say it incorrectly Pak-eh-stan) but he can't same the name of his own countries military billets correctly. Don't believe me? Check out this article on Politico written BEFORE he screwed up the name Corpsman. The date above the article says 2010 but if you look at the publish date by the authors name it is 7/3/09.
Barack Obama, a stickler for pronunciation - Carol E. Lee - POLITICO.com
Corpseman, especially in the setting he said it in, was a big deal. He's speaking of a man laying on a gurney and calls him a Corpseman. Awesome.


I stand corrected about cuts. I did mean he increased fees.
Anyway, I have a hard time seeing how you, as a vet, don't see a problem with a POTUS sending troops to war but at the same time making them pay more for their medical coverage. In case you didn't realize it, those increases are going to hit the guys he's sending over to get maimed and destroyed by IEDs at some point. I have Traumatic Brain Injury, PTSD, and nerve damage in both ears from IED and grenade blasts. So now, all of the medical care I'm going to require from the injuries I sustained going to war in countries he ordered me to go to is going to cost me even more than it would have. Yep, he's a regular patriot. Meanwhile, it only saves 11 billion over 10 years. I can think of quite a few programs we could cut instead of military friggin Tricare to get those kind of savings. Obama doesn't do everything wrong. I'm not one of those guys who thinks Obama wakes up screwing the country. But I do believe he shows a lack of respect to the military on a regular basis. Cutting military funding and troops? I have no problem with some cuts. Retirement reform? I have no issue with that either. Not in the way that was proposed but I am willing to give up some retirement benefits for the good of the country. Medical? That's the last thing he should be proposing cuts to on the DOD side of the house. Especially with what we know now as far as PTSD, TBI, etc. I don't use this word lightly, but I think its unpatriotic.
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I'm not disagreeing with you about Tricare, I'm not taking a stance on whether the raising of fees is right or wrong I was merely correcting you on your original point.

As for the other two things, its just opinion but personally I think you are being way too sensitive. Especially about the pronunciation, no one can have perfect pronunciation even if they strive for it. Hell I've said "Marine Corpse" a few times because it just slipped out, doesn't mean I disrespect you guys and your fragile fragile egos. ;)
 
Wiseone said:
I'm not disagreeing with you about Tricare, I'm not taking a stance on whether the raising of fees is right or wrong I was merely correcting you on your original point.

As for the other two things, its just opinion but personally I think you are being way too sensitive. Especially about the pronunciation, no one can have perfect pronunciation even if they strive for it. Hell I've said "Marine Corpse" a few times because it just slipped out, doesn't mean I disrespect you guys and your fragile fragile egos. ;)
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1 time, its a mistake reading it from a teleprompter. 3 or 4 times? You prove you dont really know the word or what it means. And if you are taking the time to honor someone...shouldnt you do more than read someone elses prepared text?
 
VanceMack said:
1 time, its a mistake reading it from a teleprompter. 3 or 4 times? You prove you dont really know the word or what it means. And if you are taking the time to honor someone...shouldnt you do more than read someone elses prepared text?
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Again, reading too much into it and your premise doesn't support your conclusion. Mispronouncing a word a few times is not sufficient evidence that disrespect is intended. As for disrespect being felt, that's entirely on the other person's end, and as we know people can see disrespect in all kinds of things where it wasn't intended. Feeling disrespected when no disrespect was intended is entirely your fault because its your perspective, and no there's no universal "well these people are military therefore the President should know what disrespects us," as I'm happy to point out as a non disrespected military member.

You're being extremely nit picky, if you think the mistake was made only 3 or 4 times how many thousands of times do you think Obama has done something intended to honor the troops? And you're being contradictory, reading from prepared text by definition reduces mistakes but you don't want him to have a prepared text because it disrespectful to you but that increases the chances of mistakes being made. Mistakes are inevitable, no one will have perfect pronunciation or whatever else, but here you want him to do two contradicting things.

And since when are prepared texts insulting? When we had a General visit our BN once he read from a prepared text, hell I don't know if anyone there even cared enough to think if they had just been disrespected.

Hell when I got my commission the 3 star that gave the speech and oath had a prepared speech that lasted 20 minutes. Now what would you have me to? Think to myself "My God I've been in the military for only a few moments now and I'm already dishonored!!" You know personally I prefer to have a more positive and less selfish attitude toward things.
 
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Wiseone said:
Again, reading too much into it and your premise doesn't support your conclusion. Mispronouncing a word a few times is not sufficient evidence that disrespect is intended. As for disrespect being felt, that's entirely on the other person's end, and as we know people can see disrespect in all kinds of things where it wasn't intended. Feeling disrespected when no disrespect was intended is entirely your fault because its your perspective, and no there's no universal "well these people are military therefore the President should know what disrespects us," as I'm happy to point out as a non disrespected military member.

You're being extremely nit picky, if you think the mistake was made only 3 or 4 times how many thousands of times do you think Obama has done something intended to honor the troops? And you're being contradictory, reading from prepared text by definition reduces mistakes but you don't want him to have a prepared text because it disrespectful to you but that increases the chances of mistakes being made. Mistakes are inevitable, no one will have perfect pronunciation or whatever else, but here you want him to do two contradicting things.

And since when are prepared texts insulting? When we had a General visit our BN once he read from a prepared text, hell I don't know if anyone there even cared enough to think if they had just been disrespected.

Hell when I got my commission the 3 star that gave the speech and oath had a prepared speech that lasted 20 minutes. Now what would you have me to? Think to myself "My God I've been in the military for only a few moments now and I'm already dishonored!!" You know personally I prefer to have a more positive and less selfish attitude toward things.
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If I am a professional speech reader (and lets face it...that is Obamas greatest qualification) I am going to hear a word like 'Corpseman' come out of my mouth and immediately go...whoa...did I just say that?) and correct myself. Because I actually know the word. If i dont correct myself on the spot Im going to make sure I say it correctly the next time. And Im personally not making a big deal of it. It was brought up, commented on again, so I tossed in my two pennies. I get that others write speeches for presidents...but when you are at a tribute honoring a serviceman? You REALLy dont think that is worthy of more than, "OK Jean...whats next on todays agenda...is the teleprompter warmed up? Lets bust this thing out...I have a tee time at 3..."
 
VanceMack said:
If I am a professional speech reader (and lets face it...that is Obamas greatest qualification) I am going to hear a word like 'Corpseman' come out of my mouth and immediately go...whoa...did I just say that?) and correct myself. Because I actually know the word. If i dont correct myself on the spot Im going to make sure I say it correctly the next time. And Im personally not making a big deal of it. It was brought up, commented on again, so I tossed in my two pennies. I get that others write speeches for presidents...but when you are at a tribute honoring a serviceman? You REALLy dont think that is worthy of more than, "OK Jean...whats next on todays agenda...is the teleprompter warmed up? Lets bust this thing out...I have a tee time at 3..."
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Good then I'm going to stop talking about it because trying to judge the President on the way he says the word "Corpsemen" is just silly.
 
Wiseone said:
I'm not disagreeing with you about Tricare, I'm not taking a stance on whether the raising of fees is right or wrong I was merely correcting you on your original point.

As for the other two things, its just opinion but personally I think you are being way too sensitive. Especially about the pronunciation, no one can have perfect pronunciation even if they strive for it. Hell I've said "Marine Corpse" a few times because it just slipped out, doesn't mean I disrespect you guys and your fragile fragile egos. ;)
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I'm glad you agree with me about Tricare. I think its highway robbery personally.
I can understand you mispronouncing. You're not speaking in front of a prayer breakfast with a prepared statement. My point about him is this. He puts a lot of work into preparing to speak to foreign dignataries. He puts a lot of effort into speaking to fundraisers. Can't he put that effort into speaking to us? Is it that hard? When you're talking about a guy laying on a gurney, close to death, you don't call him a Corpseman. Also, I will say this and we can halt our debate. If my son had been on that plane and I had requested no pictures only to see Obama posing in photos later, I would have been on every major news network calling the guy out. I just think it is disrespectful. Especially when you consider the precedence President Bush set in regards to the way he treated us. Bush screwed up a lot of stuff, but he got it right in the department.
 
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