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Thread: Offended Muslim chokes atheist, and then ...(edited

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    Re: Offended Muslim chokes atheist, and then ...(edited

    Quote Originally Posted by Thunder View Post
    there is no such thing as "God-given freedoms".

    not even the Founding Fathers of the USA put that idea into law.

    It's a philosophical position that some of us take.

    If you want to read up on it, it's called "natural law." Natural law - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Of course, as you already know but out of duty I should mention, the Declaration of Independence contains this memorable line: "we are endowed by our creator with certain unalienable rights."

    I would hold that philosophical view regardless. It is nice to know that the founding fathers shared it, however.

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    Re: Offended Muslim chokes atheist, and then ...(edited

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Grimm View Post
    It's a philosophical position that some of us take.

    If you want to read up on it, it's called "natural law." Natural law - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Of course, as you already know but out of duty I should mention, the Declaration of Independence contains this memorable line:


    I would hold that philosophical view regardless. It is nice to know that the founding fathers shared it, however.
    My interpretation of Natural Law is that it is not derived from religion, maybe I am wrong.
    The quote you provide seems to be in contradiction to some other quotes from our Founding Fathers (not necessarily just those who signed the Constitution).
    "we are endowed by our creator with certain unalienable rights." (this quote includes "creator" which implies we were created by something larger than "us". Here are some quotes that imply some of the Founding Fathers disagree with having a "creator" or organized religion:

    "I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of...Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and for my own part, I disbelieve them all."
    ---Thomas Paine in The Age of Reason

    "Twenty times in the course of my late reading, have I been upon the point of breaking out, "This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it!"
    ----John Adams

    "Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise."
    --James Madison

    "You know, when they came and took away my fourth amendment I kept my yap shut, what the hell, I really didnít have anything to hide anyway. When they grabbed up my second amendment I sat still and bit my tongue because, truth be told, Iím allergic to guns. But here we are, you with your cold hard fingers wrapped around the neck of my first amendment and Iíve got to shout as loud as I can, because if I donít, before you know it, you wonít let me say nothing at all"
    --Randolph J. Dworkin

    ďReading makes a full man, meditation a profound man, discourse a clear man.Ē
    -- Ben Franklin

    "It has been said that something as small as the flutter of a butterfly's wing can ultimately cause a typhoon halfway around the world"
    -- Chaos Theory

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    Re: Offended Muslim chokes atheist, and then ...(edited

    Quote Originally Posted by taxigirl View Post
    My interpretation of Natural Law is that it is not derived from religion, maybe I am wrong.
    The quote you provide seems to be in contradiction to some other quotes from our Founding Fathers (not necessarily just those who signed the Constitution).
    "we are endowed by our creator with certain unalienable rights." (this quote includes "creator" which implies we were created by something larger than "us". Here are some quotes that imply some of the Founding Fathers disagree with having a "creator" or organized religion:
    It's not so much an argument for religion as an argument that our rights are inherent. In other schools of thought, people have no rights but those granted to them by the government. There is a distinction.

  4. #124
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    Re: Offended Muslim chokes atheist, and then ...(edited

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Grimm View Post
    It's not so much an argument for religion as an argument that our rights are inherent. In other schools of thought, people have no rights but those granted to them by the government. There is a distinction.
    I guess I see that believing you have no rights unless you are granted them by the government is very similar to various religions that say you "can" or "cannot" do something, or else.... x consequence.

    What if I want to be separate from that? What if I don't acknowledge that the government or a creator has control of my rights to begin with (separatism).

    "You know, when they came and took away my fourth amendment I kept my yap shut, what the hell, I really didnít have anything to hide anyway. When they grabbed up my second amendment I sat still and bit my tongue because, truth be told, Iím allergic to guns. But here we are, you with your cold hard fingers wrapped around the neck of my first amendment and Iíve got to shout as loud as I can, because if I donít, before you know it, you wonít let me say nothing at all"
    --Randolph J. Dworkin

    ďReading makes a full man, meditation a profound man, discourse a clear man.Ē
    -- Ben Franklin

    "It has been said that something as small as the flutter of a butterfly's wing can ultimately cause a typhoon halfway around the world"
    -- Chaos Theory

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    Re: Offended Muslim chokes atheist, and then ...(edited

    Quote Originally Posted by taxigirl View Post
    I guess I see that believing you have no rights unless you are granted them by the government is very similar to various religions that say you "can" or "cannot" do something, or else.... x consequence.

    What if I want to be separate from that? What if I don't acknowledge that the government or a creator has control of my rights to begin with (separatism).
    I guess the question you have to answer is where do your rights come from? Are they given to you by somebody else, or are they yours to begin with?

    I'm going with option 2. I think every person on earth is born free, and it's only other people and governments that take away those freedoms.

  6. #126
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    Re: Offended Muslim chokes atheist: Where's the outrage from the Left?

    Quote Originally Posted by 1Perry View Post
    I'm wondering how it could be that nobody at a parade would have seen what transpired?
    People saw it happen. Then they went home. If you need a witness, it's usually a good idea to get one before they all go home.

    Without any witnesses, it becomes a liar's game. The prosecution had no evidence. The judge should have just dismissed the case without the lecture. I've been lectured to before from the bench. It's not part of the case. The judge will wait until the case is officially over before he/she makes you listen to the lecture. You can walk out while the judge is still talking to you and you won't be cited for contempt, but I doubt anyone ever does.

    At this point, the lecture is not grounds to dismiss the judge. It's just some friendly advice.
    Quote Originally Posted by Northern Light View Post
    The systems that ensure freedom and liberty are breaking down and fundamentalism is growing. Nobody is righteous anymore.


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    Re: Offended Muslim chokes atheist, and then ...(edited

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Grimm View Post
    It's a philosophical position that some of us take.

    If you want to read up on it, it's called "natural law." Natural law - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Of course, as you already know but out of duty I should mention, the Declaration of Independence contains this memorable line: "we are endowed by our creator with certain unalienable rights."

    I would hold that philosophical view regardless. It is nice to know that the founding fathers shared it, however.
    Yet as Kant has shown us, natural law can be derived without invoking a deity.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: Offended Muslim chokes atheist, and then ...(edited

    Quote Originally Posted by Thunder View Post
    no, you can't use the excuse "dem iz fightin' words"...to justify assault.
    Mitigate. Yes, you can mitigate assault by saying I was provoked.

    And, if the words could create a potentially dangerous situation, then they're not covered.

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    Re: Offended Muslim chokes atheist, and then ...(edited

    Quote Originally Posted by hazlnut View Post
    Mitigate. Yes, you can mitigate assault by saying I was provoked.

    And, if the words could create a potentially dangerous situation, then they're not covered.
    So if I punch someone for wearing a Zombie Jesus costume I can get away with it because I "was provoked?"

  10. #130
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    Re: Offended Muslim chokes atheist, and then ...(edited

    Quote Originally Posted by hazlnut View Post
    Mitigate. Yes, you can mitigate assault by saying I was provoked.

    And, if the words could create a potentially dangerous situation, then they're not covered.
    It is not an excuse to assault someone. You don't get a "pass". The government can tell you not to say those things.

    "You know, when they came and took away my fourth amendment I kept my yap shut, what the hell, I really didnít have anything to hide anyway. When they grabbed up my second amendment I sat still and bit my tongue because, truth be told, Iím allergic to guns. But here we are, you with your cold hard fingers wrapped around the neck of my first amendment and Iíve got to shout as loud as I can, because if I donít, before you know it, you wonít let me say nothing at all"
    --Randolph J. Dworkin

    ďReading makes a full man, meditation a profound man, discourse a clear man.Ē
    -- Ben Franklin

    "It has been said that something as small as the flutter of a butterfly's wing can ultimately cause a typhoon halfway around the world"
    -- Chaos Theory

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