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Thread: Oklahoma elects first openly gay state senator

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    Re: Oklahoma elects first openly gay state senator

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Believing that blacks aren't lesser people than whites is going against the norms of our country, but somehow THAT change in cultural norms somehow didn't destroy the country.
    But those damned women voters....total disaster!!!

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    Re: Oklahoma elects first openly gay state senator

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Believing that blacks aren't lesser people than whites is going against the norms of our country, but somehow THAT change in cultural norms somehow didn't destroy the country.
    That was something good, marriage isn't meant to be for a man and man, or woman and woman.
    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT on Nov 8th, 2012 View Post
    Over the next four years the economy will continue to rebound and we will gradually get deficits under control. The real esate market will rebound, unemployment will fall to 6.5% or below, and GDP growth will stand at 3.5 - 4%. We won't be in any wars. And conservatives will still be whining.

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    Re: Oklahoma elects first openly gay state senator

    Quote Originally Posted by Amigo View Post
    That was something good, marriage isn't meant to be for a man and man, or woman and woman.
    According to whom? Christians? Before they realized how utterly stupid their policy was, they didn't even allow marriage amongst Christian followers. Original Christians were meant to be hermits, aescetics, and 100% celibate. One day a guy smarter than the rest said, "wait a second. How are we going to take over ze world if we don't find a faster, more efficient way of building our following?! I guess we'll have to let 'em screw and procreate...but we'll have to limit when and how they can screw."

    It was only logical progression from there to limit marriage to men and women, since they're the only ones who can screw each other to a produce children. Christians didn't invent the construct of marriage; it predates the creation of Christianty by almost 2,000 years. Further, most civilizations prior to Christianity allowed or embraced homosexual relationships.
    "Hmmm...Can't decide if I want to watch "Four Houses" or give myself an Icy Hot pee hole enema..." - Blake Shelton


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    Re: Oklahoma elects first openly gay state senator

    Quote Originally Posted by tessaesque View Post
    According to whom? Christians? Before they realized how utterly stupid their policy was, they didn't even allow marriage amongst Christian followers. Original Christians were meant to be hermits, aescetics, and 100% celibate. One day a guy smarter than the rest said, "wait a second. How are we going to take over ze world if we don't find a faster, more efficient way of building our following?! I guess we'll have to let 'em screw and procreate...but we'll have to limit when and how they can screw."

    It was only logical progression from there to limit marriage to men and women, since they're the only ones who can screw each other to a produce children. Christians didn't invent the construct of marriage; it predates the creation of Christianty by almost 2,000 years. Further, most civilizations prior to Christianity allowed or embraced homosexual relationships.
    Human Nature, it isn't natual to be married to someone of the same sex.
    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT on Nov 8th, 2012 View Post
    Over the next four years the economy will continue to rebound and we will gradually get deficits under control. The real esate market will rebound, unemployment will fall to 6.5% or below, and GDP growth will stand at 3.5 - 4%. We won't be in any wars. And conservatives will still be whining.

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    Re: Oklahoma elects first openly gay state senator

    Quote Originally Posted by Amigo View Post
    Human Nature, it isn't natual to be married to someone of the same sex.
    It isn't natural to dye my hair bright pink, either. Want to outlaw that?
    "Hmmm...Can't decide if I want to watch "Four Houses" or give myself an Icy Hot pee hole enema..." - Blake Shelton


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    Re: Oklahoma elects first openly gay state senator

    Quote Originally Posted by Amigo View Post
    That was something good, marriage isn't meant to be for a man and man, or woman and woman.
    So retaining the values and cultural principles of the founders is only something that will cause the death of America if you believe its a bad thing, but if you think its a good thing then its absolutely fine.

    The Founders had the potential to establish that we would be a Christian State...they choose instead to insure that the State could not be ANY type of religious state.

    Now, I disagree that the Founders sought to establish a "secular" state as some people state. A secular state is one that, by definition, would require that its activities, attitudes, and laws had no spiritual or religious basis. The fact that the Constitution protects the freedom to practice religion means that any citizen, be they the average voter or a Senator or the President, absolutely is free to allow his beliefs to influence how he feels the state should act. There is nothing in the constitution that states that a Congressman can't vote on a law based on his spiritual belief structure, or even propose a law based on what he believes. What it prohibits however is the passage of laws that would prohibit the free exercise of religion or that establishes a specific religion. Suggesting that there is some kind of requirement that the state acts according to "christian principles" is suggesting the state should establish a state religion. If you PERSONALLY think that's what it should do, and you wish to push for that...that's aboslutely fine. But it is not contrary to what the founders intended to do otherwise...to the contrary, by providing Freedom of Religion rather than establishing a Christian State, the founders were directly allowing people to use whatever belief structure they wished to guide how they felt the country should go.

    My stance has been for some time that I believe that we should remove it from the federal government completely. And, barring that, then the government should remove the term "marriage" from the law completely and transition to a civil union system that allows any two people to enter into marriage due to my belief that, based on the constitution...which is what I believe should be the basis and foundation for our laws and what our government can do...there is sexual discrimination with regards to our current marriage laws and as a conservative I can not rightly support maintaining a law that I believe to be unconstitutional.

    However, I believe that it's ludicrous to suggest that the establishment of Gay Marriage would somehow lead to destruction of our o****ry. America is a far greater nation with far more resolve than to allow itself to be destroyed over something so amazingly trivial as to whether or not two men can get a tax break.

    I do not worry about the "Judeo-Christian" values of our Founders. I worry about the Constitutional Values of our founders. Mandating a "Christian morality system" upon the population through the force of government is not a constitutional value, but one that actually works against it.

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    Re: Oklahoma elects first openly gay state senator

    Quote Originally Posted by Amigo View Post
    Human Nature, it isn't natual to be married to someone of the same sex.
    Marriage isn't "natural". Its a societal creation.

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    Re: Oklahoma elects first openly gay state senator

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Marriage isn't "natural". Its a societal creation.
    Religious folk might disagree though. Similar to the concept of natural (in other words "God-given") rights, some see marriage as a sacred and divine institution.
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
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    Re: Oklahoma elects first openly gay state senator

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    Religious folk might disagree though. Similar to the concept of natural (in other words "God-given") rights, some see marriage as a sacred and divine institution.
    I think something can be a societal creation that is also divine institution or sacred.

    However, unless one is a young earth creationist I have a difficulty imagining how you could argue that the notion of marriage is inherently given down to man by God unless you think he was acting through "false" deities prior to the point where belief in the "True" god began. The idea and occurence of marriage has been recorded in human history long before the Judeo-Christian religion had came into being.

    There are numerous things that are "sacred" that are not specifically "natural" things.

    Actually...thinking on this, I'll take it back...

    In the sense of using "natural" in the notion of an inherent sense of "rightness" and "wrongness" then I could conceed the notion that while marriage isn't inherently natural, that one could believe a specific type of marriage is the "natural" type. That said, it relies far more on the definition of "natural" that is based around individualized opinion rather than catagoric fact.

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    Re: Oklahoma elects first openly gay state senator

    Quote Originally Posted by Amigo View Post
    Human Nature, it isn't natual to be married to someone of the same sex.
    To you maybe, but to me, it's for sure as hell my nature.
    Eat me, drink me, love me;
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