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Thread: Obama Makes New Budget Sales Pitch; GOP Strikes Back

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    Re: Obama Makes New Budget Sales Pitch; GOP Strikes Back

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    Nah, let's cut out all education, environment, and energy spending. That adds up to a whopping ... about 1/3 of military spending.

    Cut entitlement spending and defense spending both by 1/3rd. You'll save roughly 1 trillion dollars on the budget and bring total spending outlays under total receipts, obliterating the deficit. Any additional cuts you make to the other 1/4th of government that isn't made up of those two primary expenditures simply goes to allowing the U.S. to potentially pay more towards its debt each year, thus helping to reduce any difference between receipts and outlays by reducing our required debt payment each year.

    A 1/3rd cut in spending on both sides of that equation would still relegate Entitlement and Defense spending as a majority of our government spending...simply changing it from 3/4ths of our spending to 2/3rds.

    Education, subsidies, foreign aid, these things are drops in the bucket compared to defense and especially entitlement. Drops in the bucket do add up, but they don't really begin to make a noticable difference until the rest of the water in the bucket is relatively low. Unless you seriously look at curbing spending in the biggest offenders, and mind you entitlement spending is verging on 3:1 more than defense spending, you're just playing games. From my memory, I believe if we cut every bit of defense spending that's spent in any fashion...I mean cut all the way, down to $0...we'd STILL need to raise revenues, total revenues, by around 35% just to break even. If we cut everything but mandatory spending I think we'd just barely be coming under the deficit line. Raising taxes, unless you're going to astronomical levels, is a similar drop in the bucket as those other things I stated. Could it potentially be part of the solution? Maybe. But nothing is going to have a significant effect until the elephant and the ****ing MAMMOTH in the room get addressed seriously.

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    Re: Obama Makes New Budget Sales Pitch; GOP Strikes Back

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    We cut the spending for the military industrial complex back to defensive levels only, about $250 billion, saving about a half a trillion annually.
    $250 from what current expenditures is or after the $150 comes off the books from Iraq and Afghanistan? I'm asking only because, in a previous post you've made on this subject, you were indicating the numbers would come after the fact. So I thought I'd clarify.

    If the latter, then you're talking about cutting spending from the post-war levels by 50%, or essentially 60% of what it is now. If the former, then you're looking
    at about a 38% cut to the defense.

    We increase the taxes on millionaires and billionaires to 30% on all income, that reduces the deficit another 100 billion a year.
    I'll even take this one on face value and assume true

    Raising the cap on SS to $180,000 makes SS solvent for the long term eliminating the $820 billion you have indicated in your graph.
    So you're suggesting to increase the amount people are required to pay into social security? Are you also suggesting upping the maximum individuals can recieve back in social security, or are you simply stating that some people have to pay more for everyone else?

    Upgrading to a single payer health care system would cut our health care costs in half, so we can reduce $770 billion there.
    MAJOR assumption here with no guarantee or certainty what so ever that the number results in actual correct spending reduction.

    After we have unemployment back to the 3% level tax receipts will be high enough for us to have a balanced budget
    Another GIANT assumption that we'll be back to 3% unemployment anytime soon for it to be anywhere relevant to balancing the budget in the near term

    without throwing the most vulnerable under the bus for the excesses by those with money and power over the last 30 years.
    Pure emotional babble with no worth while value.

    And btw, SS benefits have never been increased when there was an increase in the many times the SS cap has been increased in the past.
    And are you suggesting the same happen this time, and as such are you accounting for that change in the amount of entitlement spending?

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    Re: Obama Makes New Budget Sales Pitch; GOP Strikes Back

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Lets see your link for a tax credit increase for Chevy Volt only? I bet you will find it is for all electric cars. It would be extremely short-sighted and unwise to create future economic problems through peak oil and global warming while addressing our current economic problems

    Private schools with students of the same cultural and income levels perform no better than public schools.

    Chevy Volt | Electric Car | Barack Obama | The Daily Caller
    Seriously? You're ok if its more than just the Volt? Cut the subsidies period. No car should have a 10k subsidy attached to it. NONE.

    President's Budget Proposal Fails to Fund D.C. Voucher Program - MarketWatch
    Evaluation of the Impact of the DC Opportunity Scholarship Program: Final Report
    http://www.dcscholarships.org/elemen...ollment%29.pdf

    You have google, use it, tired of doing all your legwork.

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    Re: Obama Makes New Budget Sales Pitch; GOP Strikes Back

    I like this chart better Adam. Your departmental breakdown ignores how the money is actually getting spent by divinding all the entitlement programs into various smaller slices.

    outlay pie chart.jpg

    Thats a much clearer picture on actual spending.

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    Re: Obama Makes New Budget Sales Pitch; GOP Strikes Back

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhapsody1447 View Post
    Okay so cut the military to the lowest point in recorded history. Gotcha. $423 billion saved. (See how easy it is to know how much your saving when you cut spending?)
    No, just back to levels before the Korean war.

    Speculation on future revenue.
    Reasonable forecasts.

    Raising the cap on SS would remove ALL SS spending? What? That $820 billion is what is projected to be paid in 2013, how would marginally raising the cap have any impact on the amount spent?
    Raising the cap means there are enough revenues coming in to cover costs, making it self sufficient as it was designed to be. SS has a surplus of $2.6 trillion dollars that keep it solvent to 2036, raising the cap to $180,000 keeps it solvent for the long term.


    More speculation on future revenue. $770 billion from where? Medicare?
    Yes. Health care costs for countries that have UHC are half of what they are in the US.



    More speculation on future economic conditions (i.e. employment and revenue)
    Reasonable forecasts.

    This just shows the lunacy in trying to achieve a balanced budget without touching entitlement reform. MANDATORY SPENDING WAS GREATER THAN TAX REVENUE IN 2011! How can anyone honestly advocate for a balanced budget while completely ignoring 70% of the federal budget? Your solution (like so many on your side of the aisle) is to raise taxes, cross your fingers, and hope not to die.
    Since SS is not the cause of our debt, it would be stupid to cut the most successful program the country has ever had to pay for other program failures. The only way to cut health care costs is to upgrade our health care system as every other industrialized country has done.

    We will never balance the budget as long as people want to continue excessive military spending and continuing the tax cuts for the rich. We have 30 years of experience of this to know that it is true.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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    Re: Obama Makes New Budget Sales Pitch; GOP Strikes Back

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    $250 from what current expenditures is or after the $150 comes off the books from Iraq and Afghanistan? I'm asking only because, in a previous post you've made on this subject, you were indicating the numbers would come after the fact. So I thought I'd clarify.

    If the latter, then you're talking about cutting spending from the post-war levels by 50%, or essentially 60% of what it is now. If the former, then you're looking
    at about a 38% cut to the defense.



    I'll even take this one on face value and assume true



    So you're suggesting to increase the amount people are required to pay into social security? Are you also suggesting upping the maximum individuals can recieve back in social security, or are you simply stating that some people have to pay more for everyone else?



    MAJOR assumption here with no guarantee or certainty what so ever that the number results in actual correct spending reduction.



    Another GIANT assumption that we'll be back to 3% unemployment anytime soon for it to be anywhere relevant to balancing the budget in the near term



    Pure emotional babble with no worth while value.



    And are you suggesting the same happen this time, and as such are you accounting for that change in the amount of entitlement spending?
    http://www.debatepolitics.com/breaki...post1060201392
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    Re: Obama Makes New Budget Sales Pitch; GOP Strikes Back

    Quote Originally Posted by OpportunityCost View Post
    Chevy Volt | Electric Car | Barack Obama | The Daily Caller
    Seriously? You're ok if its more than just the Volt? Cut the subsidies period. No car should have a 10k subsidy attached to it. NONE.

    Just as I thought, the tax credit is good for all alternatively fueled vehicles, not just the Chevy Volt. Given that global warming and peak oil are already costing our economy more than this amount, will will cost us even more in the future, this is good preventative medicine.

    Where were you when we wasted $2 trillion dollars in Iraq??? Are you aware that Romney plans on increasing spending on the military, upon which we already spend almost as much as the rest of the world COMBINED!!!
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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    Re: Obama Makes New Budget Sales Pitch; GOP Strikes Back

    Quote Originally Posted by OpportunityCost View Post

    Thats a much clearer picture on actual spending.
    This puts our spending in perspective with what the rest of the world spends on military:

    Last edited by Catawba; 02-14-12 at 01:31 PM.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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    Re: Obama Makes New Budget Sales Pitch; GOP Strikes Back

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    No, just back to levels before the Korean war.
    Dollar amount or percent of GDP amount?

    Reasonable forecasts.
    Opinion.

    Raising the cap means there are enough revenues coming in to cover costs, making it self sufficient as it was designed to be. SS has a surplus of $2.6 trillion dollars that keep it solvent to 2036, raising the cap to $180,000 keeps it solvent for the long term.
    Doesn't answer my question.

    Yes. Health care costs for countries that have UHC are half of what they are in the US.
    Irrelevant to your statement. Simply because those countries costs are half of what they are for the US does not mean that the US will cut ours in half. Is what they're spending currently half of what they were spending before? Could it possibly be that the size and scope and regulations and other differences of our country would create a different situation? Against, questionable speculation and guessing at best by you put across as a hard number.

    Reasonable forecasts.
    Again, your opinion based on questionable reasoning and guesses at best, used to justify something as if its a hard and useful number.

    Since SS is not the cause of our debt
    There's no specific budgetary or mandatory items that do or don't contribute to our debt. All of them do. We do not have a system in this country that allocates that tax dollar X goes specifically to spending project Y, so you can not declare that any singular entity of government spending does or doesn't contribute to the debt. As long as we are running a deficit, the spending of government as a whole is causing that debt.

    You would perhaps...PERHAPS...be correct if the money gain from Social Security taxes was only used to pay for social security and that any left over was actually rolled over into the following year, and if the roll over plus what was brought in was equal to or greater what hte payout is. This however is not how the government has treated Social Security for quite some time so acting like that is how it works is dishonest and frankly nothing but a fantasy.

    it would be stupid to cut the most successful program the country has ever had to pay for other program failures.
    In my opinion it'd be stupid not to cut something that helps make up over 1/2 of all our spending.

    The only way to cut health care costs is to upgrade our health care system as every other industrialized country has done.
    That's just plainly and factually false. That is not the "only way".

    We will never balance the budget as long as people want to continue excessive military spending and continuing the tax cuts for the rich.
    Excessive Military Spending = Opinion

    Bitching about tax cuts for the rich = Emotional ploy

    We could cut every single solitary dime of defense spending and raise the taxes on the rich to Clinton levels and we'd still likely be running a deficit.

    I'm so glad you took the time to answer my post by linking to one where you defended your worthless guessed numbers by stating your worthless opinion that they're good, didn't address some of my issues, repeatedly just tried to play on emotional ploys, and continued your worthless predictable hyper partisan drum beat of tax tax tax tax spend spend spend spend.

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    Re: Obama Makes New Budget Sales Pitch; GOP Strikes Back

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Dollar amount or percent of GDP amount?

    Dollar amount of course, as military threats are not proportional to our GDP. We just have to spend more than the next top spender.



    Opinion.
    Reasonable forecast.


    Doesn't answer my question.
    I answered it in the response to the other poster, and I provided you with a link to it.
    We have never increased benefits in all the other times we have raised the SS cap. And yes, it does mean that the wealthiest in the country pay a little more, just as they have each time the cap has been increased in the past. But, I shouldn't feel too sorry for the rich as they have benefitted from 3 decades of tax cuts.



    Irrelevant to your statement. Simply because those countries costs are half of what they are for the US does not mean that the US will cut ours in half. Is what they're spending currently half of what they were spending before? Could it possibly be that the size and scope and regulations and other differences of our country would create a different situation? Against, questionable speculation and guessing at best by you put across as a hard number.
    I was talking about when the US gets serious about addressing its debt. We are not there yet, because we still waste so much on military spending and tax cuts for the wealthy. However, when we do get serious about the debt, we will have to upgrade our heath care system as the rest of the industrialized world has done. We have the most expensive health care system in the world.



    Again, your opinion based on questionable reasoning and guesses at best, used to justify something as if its a hard and useful number.
    Reasonable forecast based on the the past.



    There's no specific budgetary or mandatory items that do or don't contribute to our debt. All of them do. We do not have a system in this country that allocates that tax dollar X goes specifically to spending project Y, so you can not declare that any singular entity of government spending does or doesn't contribute to the debt. As long as we are running a deficit, the spending of government as a whole is causing that debt.
    Did you forget we keep an account of SS receipts and expenditures??? SS has a $2.6 trillion dollar surplus. It is the most well run program in the federal government.

    The general fund has a budget problem, and when it gets serious enough we will cut our excessive military spending and tax breaks for the rich.


    That's just plainly and factually false. That is not the "only way".
    Its the only way without limiting access and quality of care.


    Excessive Military Spending = Opinion
    Fact, there is data that shows we spend almost as much as the rest of the world combined. We can no longer afford to do so.

    Bitching about tax cuts for the rich = Emotional ploy
    Bitching about the debt, without addressing the true cause = Emotional ploy.


    We could cut every single solitary dime of defense spending and raise the taxes on the rich to Clinton levels and we'd still likely be running a deficit.
    You ignore the fact that we will eventually emerge from the Bush Recession, and that we will eventually upgrade our health care system.

    Romney only offers increased spending and more tax cuts for the rich = more debt!
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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