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Thread: Austerity leads to higher death rates.

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    Re: Austerity leads to higher death rates.

    Quote Originally Posted by DrunkenAsparagus View Post
    The Greek government made its bed. Now it has to lie in it. Even then, it does not matter who is responsible for the crises or why it happened. The Greek government literally cannot continue their current fiscal policy without total collapse. It needs to cut back. This is not a matter of left vs right or differing economic schools of thought. It is a matter of basic counting.
    And you, like many Americans fail to understand the problem.

    They have cut huge chunks out of the budget, but the problem is the tax system. When 60%+ of the population avoids to pay full taxes then you have a problem that is far far far far larger than "too much spending". It is in principle the same problem some what you have in the US... too much spending and not enough income. Now you can cut and cut and cut, but if the income falls as well because people cheat on their taxes (or in the US case you cut taxes) then cutting spending does not do jack to the over all deficit. Now in Greece the cutting has been so harsh that they are projected to have a primary surplus this year, which means they would have a surplus if they did not have debt repayments.

    For example, doctors have had 33% of their wages gutted and now get 1700 euros a month in wages. This can be felt .. you try to go down 33% in your wages overnight and see how that fairs. Prices and rent after all dont go down... And this happened across the public sector and private sectors with the bankers and rich not feeling much pain what so ever and still not paying their taxes. There was a story about a Greek business woman who was busted for avoiding almost 100 million Euros in back taxes.. and she was one of many who owed such large sums. She is of course now claiming she is bankrupt so ....

    You can claim the Greeks brought this on themselves, but remember this.. the Greek people were lied too by the very same right wing politicians that used US financial institutions to hide debt from the EU and the world and caused this cluster**** we see now... and these politicians and bankers have gotten off scot free... so far.. in fact the politicians almost got back in power in Greece..
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    Re: Austerity leads to higher death rates.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post


    It's not "denial," but it IS amusement at you latching onto something which is a tiny anomaly as though it's a vast norm across the nation. You're a well-established US-basher and that's how you think. I do find it entertaining.

    I didn't "blame" OWS. Learn to read. Oh, and to try to present yourself as some kind of champion of the downtrodden here is what's "pathetic."
    By mentioning OWS you try to associate the homeless tent cities as a problem created by OWS.. not true.

    Also it is nation wide, you learn to read. It is from New Jersey to Texas to Oregon to California and everywhere in between.
    PeteEU

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    Re: Austerity leads to higher death rates.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    And you, like many Americans fail to understand the problem.

    They have cut huge chunks out of the budget, but the problem is the tax system. When 60%+ of the population avoids to pay full taxes then you have a problem that is far far far far larger than "too much spending". It is in principle the same problem some what you have in the US... too much spending and not enough income. Now you can cut and cut and cut, but if the income falls as well because people cheat on their taxes (or in the US case you cut taxes) then cutting spending does not do jack to the over all deficit. Now in Greece the cutting has been so harsh that they are projected to have a primary surplus this year, which means they would have a surplus if they did not have debt repayments.

    For example, doctors have had 33% of their wages gutted and now get 1700 euros a month in wages. This can be felt .. you try to go down 33% in your wages overnight and see how that fairs. Prices and rent after all dont go down... And this happened across the public sector and private sectors with the bankers and rich not feeling much pain what so ever and still not paying their taxes. There was a story about a Greek business woman who was busted for avoiding almost 100 million Euros in back taxes.. and she was one of many who owed such large sums. She is of course now claiming she is bankrupt so ....

    You can claim the Greeks brought this on themselves, but remember this.. the Greek people were lied too by the very same right wing politicians that used US financial institutions to hide debt from the EU and the world and caused this cluster**** we see now... and these politicians and bankers have gotten off scot free... so far.. in fact the politicians almost got back in power in Greece..
    All of our government's revenue does NOT come from income taxes.

    And with the government's excessive spending habits- we have plenty of proof to show that even if 100% of people paid 100% of taxes then we'd still be belly up because our governmet has spent in excess of revenue for decades. It's how they function.
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    Re: Austerity leads to higher death rates.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aunt Spiker View Post
    All of our government's revenue does NOT come from income taxes.

    And with the government's excessive spending habits- we have plenty of proof to show that even if 100% of people paid 100% of taxes then we'd still be belly up because our governmet has spent in excess of revenue for decades. It's how they function.
    2011 deficit: $1.6 Trillion
    2012 deficit: >$1.3 Trillion
    2013 deficit: >$900 Billion

    2022 deficit: >$700 Billion

    Source: White House

    So anyone who knows 3rd grade math can see that the plan is to add at least $8-10 Trillion to the debt over the next decade.

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    Re: Austerity leads to higher death rates.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
    Government can only help if it first violates the rights and confiscates the wealth of others. We live in a free society, where the primary role of the state is to secure the rights and liberties of that free people. A state cannot be both a judge, divider, and redistributor of individual property while securing that property at the same time. It cannot do both.
    Nonsense. Living in a cooperative society with 311 million other people means taxation and governmental enforcement of the social contract. There is no such thing as a free society outside of anarchy which you can have.
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    Re: Austerity leads to higher death rates.

    Quote Originally Posted by Centinel View Post
    I think that the federal government oversteps it proper function when it begins concerning itself with the internal affairs of my state. But that's just me. I'm a decentralist. I like the decisions that effect me to be made in my community by people I know and who know me. I don't think it is effective or appropriate for the federal government, which is to say people from other states, to be taking care of the indigent in my community and state.
    Again, please tell me about the time in history before the government assumed those roles and how well that job was done by cities and states.
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    Re: Austerity leads to higher death rates.

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Nonsense. Living in a cooperative society with 311 million other people means taxation and governmental enforcement of the social contract. There is no such thing as a free society outside of anarchy which you can have.
    A free society is one where government secures the rights and liberties of its citizens. That is not anarchy. Oh, and do you have a copy of this social contract? I would like to see it. It cant possibly be the Constitution, since that document, like the Declaration of Independence, can be said to be based upon a single word--liberty.

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    Re: Austerity leads to higher death rates.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
    A free society is one where government secures the rights and liberties of its citizens. That is not anarchy. Oh, and do you have a copy of this social contract? I would like to see it. It cant possibly be the Constitution, since that document, like the Declaration of Independence, can be said to be based upon a single word--liberty.
    The social contract is the one you give your approval each and every day your behind keeps its presence here and does not leave elsewhere when you damn well know the rules.

    There is no such thing as LIBERTY. It is a hollow and empty cliche which is a joke in the modern world where people constantly have to balance rights against each other. Your precious LIBERTY does not exist in the real world of other people.

    You libertarians use the words LIBERTY and FREEDOM the same way a lounge lizard uses the word LOVE at fifteen minutes before the bar closes for the night. And your intentions are exactly the same.
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    Re: Austerity leads to higher death rates.

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    The social contract is the one you give your approval each and every day your behind keeps its presence here and does not leave elsewhere when you damn well know the rules.

    There is no such thing as LIBERTY. It is a hollow and empty cliche which is a joke in the modern world where people constantly have to balance rights against each other. Your precious LIBERTY does not exist in the real world of other people.

    You libertarians use the words LIBERTY and FREEDOM the same way a lounge lizard uses the word LOVE at fifteen minutes before the bar closes for the night. And your intentions are exactly the same.
    I can see myself not spending a great deal of time in the future responding to your posts.

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    Re: Austerity leads to higher death rates.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    And you, like many Americans fail to understand the problem.

    They have cut huge chunks out of the budget, but the problem is the tax system. When 60%+ of the population avoids to pay full taxes then you have a problem that is far far far far larger than "too much spending". It is in principle the same problem some what you have in the US... too much spending and not enough income. Now you can cut and cut and cut, but if the income falls as well because people cheat on their taxes (or in the US case you cut taxes) then cutting spending does not do jack to the over all deficit. Now in Greece the cutting has been so harsh that they are projected to have a primary surplus this year, which means they would have a surplus if they did not have debt repayments.

    For example, doctors have had 33% of their wages gutted and now get 1700 euros a month in wages. This can be felt .. you try to go down 33% in your wages overnight and see how that fairs. Prices and rent after all dont go down... And this happened across the public sector and private sectors with the bankers and rich not feeling much pain what so ever and still not paying their taxes. There was a story about a Greek business woman who was busted for avoiding almost 100 million Euros in back taxes.. and she was one of many who owed such large sums. She is of course now claiming she is bankrupt so ....

    You can claim the Greeks brought this on themselves, but remember this.. the Greek people were lied too by the very same right wing politicians that used US financial institutions to hide debt from the EU and the world and caused this cluster**** we see now... and these politicians and bankers have gotten off scot free... so far.. in fact the politicians almost got back in power in Greece..
    This is utter garbage. If you took the upper 1% and took EVERYTHING they made, we would still be running a gigantic deficit. We must cut spending to come to balance.

    All your gloom and doom there about wages? Why didnt they make incremental cuts when they could and let prices adjust? Thats right, they were too busy spending every penny that came in and some that were never going to. The part I bolded, how farsical is it to insist that right wingers are responsible for whats going on in Greece? The right in Greece is to the left of the moderates in this country.

    I love your assumption that the rich caused the debt because they didnt pay enough. No matter how much you give the government, it probably wont be enough. What happened to not spending so much? Thats what you have to do, long term or short term. Short term it doesnt hurt as much. Long term it can disastrous. Greece is learning just how disastrous. Its pathetic to place blame anywhere but the politicians that couldnt avoid their impulses to spend and spend as a means to maintain power and buy votes---whether intended or not, thats what it accomplished. Wise up, Pete.

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