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While Gunfire Echoes Inside Syria, A Cry For Help From A City Under Attack(edited)

sawyerloggingon

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Following is an exert from Obams speech on why we invaded Libya, after that is a link to what's happening in Syria. Can anyone explain why obama went into Libya but is content to let the same exact thing happen in Syria? Bush was accused of war for oil, could this be the same thing? USA doesn't get oil from Libya but remember, it's a world market.
Confronted by this brutal repression and a looming humanitarian crisis, I ordered warships into the Mediterranean. European allies declared their willingness to commit resources to stop the killing. The Libyan opposition and the Arab League appealed to the world to save lives in Libya. And so at my direction, America led an effort with our allies at the United Nations Security Council to pass a historic resolution that authorized a no-fly zone to stop the regime’s attacks from the air, and further authorized all necessary measures to protect the Libyan people.
Ten days ago, having tried to end the violence without using force, the international community offered Qaddafi a final chance to stop his campaign of killing, or face the consequences. Rather than stand down, his forces continued their advance, bearing down on the city of Benghazi, home to nearly 700,000 men, women and children who sought their freedom from fear.
At this point, the United States and the world faced a choice. Qaddafi declared he would show “no mercy” to his own people. He compared them to rats, and threatened to go door to door to inflict punishment. In the past, we have seen him hang civilians in the streets, and kill over a thousand people in a single day. Now we saw regime forces on the outskirts of the city. We knew that if we wanted — if we waited one more day, Benghazi, a city nearly the size of Charlotte, could suffer a massacre that would have reverberated across the region and stained the conscience of the world.
It was not in our national interest to let that happen. I refused to let that happen. And so nine days ago, after consulting the bipartisan leadership of Congress, I authorized military action to stop the killing and enforce U.N. Security Council Resolution 1973.


While Gunfire Echoes Inside Syria, A Cry For Help From A City Under Attack : The Two-Way : NPR
 
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Re: why not Syria

Following is an exert from Obams speech on why we invaded Libya, after that is a link to what's happening in Syria. Can anyone explain why obama went into Libya but is content to let the same exact thing happen in Syria? Bush was accused of war for oil, could this be the same thing? USA doesn't get oil from Libya but remember, it's a world market.
Confronted by this brutal repression and a looming humanitarian crisis, I ordered warships into the Mediterranean. European allies declared their willingness to commit resources to stop the killing. The Libyan opposition and the Arab League appealed to the world to save lives in Libya. And so at my direction, America led an effort with our allies at the United Nations Security Council to pass a historic resolution that authorized a no-fly zone to stop the regime’s attacks from the air, and further authorized all necessary measures to protect the Libyan people.
Ten days ago, having tried to end the violence without using force, the international community offered Qaddafi a final chance to stop his campaign of killing, or face the consequences. Rather than stand down, his forces continued their advance, bearing down on the city of Benghazi, home to nearly 700,000 men, women and children who sought their freedom from fear.
At this point, the United States and the world faced a choice. Qaddafi declared he would show “no mercy” to his own people. He compared them to rats, and threatened to go door to door to inflict punishment. In the past, we have seen him hang civilians in the streets, and kill over a thousand people in a single day. Now we saw regime forces on the outskirts of the city. We knew that if we wanted — if we waited one more day, Benghazi, a city nearly the size of Charlotte, could suffer a massacre that would have reverberated across the region and stained the conscience of the world.
It was not in our national interest to let that happen. I refused to let that happen. And so nine days ago, after consulting the bipartisan leadership of Congress, I authorized military action to stop the killing and enforce U.N. Security Council Resolution 1973.


While Gunfire Echoes Inside Syria, A Cry For Help From A City Under Attack : The Two-Way : NPR

Because Obama is afraid of war with Iran. Iran and Syria have a MPP and if either is attacked they other will come to her aid. Obama is a fraidy cat, basically. :)


Tim-
 
Re: why not Syria

Because Obama is afraid of war with Iran. Iran and Syria have a MPP and if either is attacked they other will come to her aid. Obama is a fraidy cat, basically. :)


Tim-

Syrian refugees are going into Turkey not Italy.. and European and US oil companies have NO capital invetments in Syria.

Obama is smart not to attack Syria...
 
Re: why not Syria

The Libyan intervention worked not because of any moral precepts, but because strategic factors made it possible. An intervention in Syria is a bad idea not because it is wrong but because it isn't workable. Assad is much stronger than Qadaffi, the rebels are less organized, the terrain isn't as suitable for airstrikes, no oil to provide international motivation, Syria has powerful allies ect. Good intentions don't mean much on the battlefield.
 
Re: why not Syria

I'm not sure either was a good idea at this point, personally. It's waay to early to tell with Libya.

However, if we applied the "why not" logic to every individual case, by rights we should be intervening in multiple countries in the middle east as well as half of sub-Saharan Africa.
 
Re: why not Syria

There's a few major differences.

1. Getting China and particularly Russia out of the way of a UN resolution is incredibly difficult, remember they were never on board with the Libyan mission, they simply abstained.

2. Geographically Syria is alot harder to operate in. Libya is wide expanses of desert which allowed cities and towns to exchange hands incredibly quickly.

3. Syria's resistance is not the same either, while there are pockets of armed resistance against the Assad regime, it's not strong enough, or organized enough even with multi-national airstrikes to combat the regime.

Just a few of my thoughts for the time being.
 
Re: While Gunfire Echoes Inside Syria, A Cry For Help From A City Under Attack(edited

Following is an exert from Obams speech on why we invaded Libya, after that is a link to what's happening in Syria. Can anyone explain why obama went into Libya but is content to let the same exact thing happen in Syria? Bush was accused of war for oil, could this be the same thing? USA doesn't get oil from Libya but remember, it's a world market.
Confronted by this brutal repression and a looming humanitarian crisis, I ordered warships into the Mediterranean. European allies declared their willingness to commit resources to stop the killing. The Libyan opposition and the Arab League appealed to the world to save lives in Libya. And so at my direction, America led an effort with our allies at the United Nations Security Council to pass a historic resolution that authorized a no-fly zone to stop the regime’s attacks from the air, and further authorized all necessary measures to protect the Libyan people.
Ten days ago, having tried to end the violence without using force, the international community offered Qaddafi a final chance to stop his campaign of killing, or face the consequences. Rather than stand down, his forces continued their advance, bearing down on the city of Benghazi, home to nearly 700,000 men, women and children who sought their freedom from fear.
At this point, the United States and the world faced a choice. Qaddafi declared he would show “no mercy” to his own people. He compared them to rats, and threatened to go door to door to inflict punishment. In the past, we have seen him hang civilians in the streets, and kill over a thousand people in a single day. Now we saw regime forces on the outskirts of the city. We knew that if we wanted — if we waited one more day, Benghazi, a city nearly the size of Charlotte, could suffer a massacre that would have reverberated across the region and stained the conscience of the world.
It was not in our national interest to let that happen. I refused to let that happen. And so nine days ago, after consulting the bipartisan leadership of Congress, I authorized military action to stop the killing and enforce U.N. Security Council Resolution 1973.


While Gunfire Echoes Inside Syria, A Cry For Help From A City Under Attack : The Two-Way : NPR

Not complicated. Syria doesn't have major deposits of OIL. We war with countries that will result in their OIL/resources moving into the USA, UK, and France distribution networks. Centralized Distribution of Energy = Centralized Collection of Monies. You have to pay back the big campaign donors.
 
Re: While Gunfire Echoes Inside Syria, A Cry For Help From A City Under Attack(edited

In Egypt, obama was right there with the freedom protesters. Egypt had been an Allie in the middle east.

In Liby obama was right there with bombs and million dollar missiles. Qaddafifi had surrendered his nuke program to the US and was no threat to us whatsoever.

In Iran the freedom protesters was virtually ignored by obama. Iran is a threat to us and the entire mid east.

Now in Syria obama again does virtually nothing to help the freedom fighters. Syria has been a huge thorn in our side.All the reasons obama gave for bombing libya and launching 100s of million dollar missles exist in Syria except squared. If some reporter tries to trip up this rep candidate, whoever he is, by asking what the obama doctrine is they can legitimately say I have absolutely no idea.
 
Re: While Gunfire Echoes Inside Syria, A Cry For Help From A City Under Attack(edited

Maybe Obama listened to all the conservatives criticising his actions, and decided not to do it again.
 
Re: While Gunfire Echoes Inside Syria, A Cry For Help From A City Under Attack(edited

'big oil' doesnt yet have a vested interest in syria as they did in libya before kadaffi threatened their profits. when they do, you can bet theyll send the us military in to stabilize it and maximize profits.
 
Re: While Gunfire Echoes Inside Syria, A Cry For Help From A City Under Attack(edited

Russia's Mediterranean Fleet is based in Tartus, in Syria. They are currently facing down the GHW Bush as we speak.
 
Re: While Gunfire Echoes Inside Syria, A Cry For Help From A City Under Attack(edited

I would say that an intervention in Syria is possible. However, I would like to say that there is a lot of going on in regards to Syria.

In regards to Libya, there was no investigation into if the accusations against Gaddafi even held any weight. For example:

"Human rights organisations have cast doubt on claims of mass rape and other abuses perpetrated by forces loyal to Colonel Muammar Gaddafi, which have been widely used to justify Nato's war in Libya." (Amnesty questions claim that Gaddafi ordered rape as weapon of war - Africa - World - The Independent)

"Still, the rebels have offered their own far-fetched claims, like mass rapes by loyalist troops issued tablets of Viagra. Although the rebels have not offered credible proof, that claim is nonetheless the basis of an investigation by the International Criminal Court." (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/24/world/africa/24fog.html?_r=3&pagewanted=all)

"There have been no confirmed cases of that; supposedly there are many African prisoners of war being held in Benghazi, but conveniently journalists are not allowed to see them.There are, however, African guest workers, poorly paid migrant labor, many of whom, unarmed, have been labeled mercenaries." (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/24/world/africa/24fog.html?_r=2&pagewanted=all)​


In addition to this, there was little to no talk in the MSM about the rebels killing black Africans

"Across eastern Libya, rebel fighters and their supporters are detaining, intimidating and frequently beating African immigrants and black Libyans, accusing them of fighting as mercenaries on behalf of Kadafi, witnesses and human rights workers say.

In a few instances, rebels have executed suspected mercenaries captured in battle, according to Human Rights Watch and local Libyans." (Blacks In Libya | Libyan rebels accused of targeting blacks - Los Angeles Times)​


But the West did have a UN Mandate, thus they went in and bombed Libya and overthrew Gaddafi even though that last part was overstepping the UN mandate.

In Syria the situation is different as the US, France, and Britain are already aiding the Syrian rebels. According Philip Giraldi, a former CIA analyst, the Syrian rebels are being given weapons that are transported via "unmarked NATO airplanes," that "volunteers from the Libyan National Transitional Council" are being brought in to aid the rebels and that "French and British special forces trainers are on the ground, assisting the Syrian rebels while the CIA and U.S. Spec Ops are providing communications equipment and intelligence to assist the rebel cause, enabling the fighters to avoid concentrations of Syrian soldiers." (The American Conservative » NATO vs. Syria).

In addition to this, while the West is trying to get a UN mandate to possibly allow for intervention in Syria, they are ignoring the report that the Arab League observers came out with. Here are some excerpts:

The Mission determined that there is an armed entity that is not mentioned in the protocol. This development on the ground can undoubtedly be attributed to the excessive use of force by Syrian Government forces in response to protests that occurred before the deployment of the Mission demanding the fall of the regime. In some zones, this armed entity reacted by attacking Syrian security forces and citizens, causing the Government to respond with further violence. In the end, innocent citizens pay the price for those actions with life and limb.
...

Arab and foreign audiences of certain media organizations have questioned the Mission’s credibility because those organizations use the media to distort the facts. It will be difficult to overcome this problem unless there is political and media support for the Mission and its mandate. It is only natural that some negative incidents should occur as it conducts its activities because such incidents occur as a matter of course in similar missions.​
...

In Homs, Idlib and Hama, the Observer Mission witnessed acts of violence being committed against Government forces and civilians that resulted in several deaths and injuries. Examples of those acts include the bombing of a civilian bus, killing eight persons and injuring others, including women and children, and the bombing of a train carrying diesel oil. In another incident in Homs, a police bus was blown up, killing two police officers. A fuel pipeline and some small bridges were also bombed.​


The entire Arab League Syrian report can be seen here (http://www.columbia.edu/~hauben/Report_of_Arab_League_Observer_Mission.pdf).

This has been completely ignored by the US and the Arab League as they are pushing for an intervention in Syria and this report does not line up with what they want. Thus, I think an intervention in Syria is possible.
 
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Re: why not Syria

There's a few major differences.

1. Getting China and particularly Russia out of the way of a UN resolution is incredibly difficult, remember they were never on board with the Libyan mission, they simply abstained.

2. Geographically Syria is alot harder to operate in. Libya is wide expanses of desert which allowed cities and towns to exchange hands incredibly quickly.

3. Syria's resistance is not the same either, while there are pockets of armed resistance against the Assad regime, it's not strong enough, or organized enough even with multi-national airstrikes to combat the regime.

Just a few of my thoughts for the time being.

Not to mention the presence of Russian warships of Syria's coast. Russia would have to be gotten out of the way both literally and metaphorically.
 
Re: While Gunfire Echoes Inside Syria, A Cry For Help From A City Under Attack(edited

I would say that an intervention in Syria is possible. However, I would like to say that there is a lot of going on in regards to Syria.

In regards to Libya, there was no investigation into if the accusations against Gaddafi even held any weight. For example:

"Human rights organisations have cast doubt on claims of mass rape and other abuses perpetrated by forces loyal to Colonel Muammar Gaddafi, which have been widely used to justify Nato's war in Libya." (Amnesty questions claim that Gaddafi ordered rape as weapon of war - Africa - World - The Independent)

"Still, the rebels have offered their own far-fetched claims, like mass rapes by loyalist troops issued tablets of Viagra. Although the rebels have not offered credible proof, that claim is nonetheless the basis of an investigation by the International Criminal Court." (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/24/world/africa/24fog.html?_r=3&pagewanted=all)

"There have been no confirmed cases of that; supposedly there are many African prisoners of war being held in Benghazi, but conveniently journalists are not allowed to see them.There are, however, African guest workers, poorly paid migrant labor, many of whom, unarmed, have been labeled mercenaries." (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/24/world/africa/24fog.html?_r=2&pagewanted=all)​


In addition to this, there was little to no talk in the MSM about the rebels killing black Africans

"Across eastern Libya, rebel fighters and their supporters are detaining, intimidating and frequently beating African immigrants and black Libyans, accusing them of fighting as mercenaries on behalf of Kadafi, witnesses and human rights workers say.

In a few instances, rebels have executed suspected mercenaries captured in battle, according to Human Rights Watch and local Libyans." (Blacks In Libya | Libyan rebels accused of targeting blacks - Los Angeles Times)​


But the West did have a UN Mandate, thus they went in and bombed Libya and overthrew Gaddafi even though that last part was overstepping the UN mandate.

In Syria the situation is different as the US, France, and Britain are already aiding the Syrian rebels. According Philip Giraldi, a former CIA analyst, the Syrian rebels are being given weapons that are transported via "unmarked NATO airplanes," that "volunteers from the Libyan National Transitional Council" are being brought in to aid the rebels and that "French and British special forces trainers are on the ground, assisting the Syrian rebels while the CIA and U.S. Spec Ops are providing communications equipment and intelligence to assist the rebel cause, enabling the fighters to avoid concentrations of Syrian soldiers." (The American Conservative » NATO vs. Syria).

In addition to this, while the West is trying to get a UN mandate to possibly allow for intervention in Syria, they are ignoring the report that the Arab League observers came out with. Here are some excerpts:

The Mission determined that there is an armed entity that is not mentioned in the protocol. This development on the ground can undoubtedly be attributed to the excessive use of force by Syrian Government forces in response to protests that occurred before the deployment of the Mission demanding the fall of the regime. In some zones, this armed entity reacted by attacking Syrian security forces and citizens, causing the Government to respond with further violence. In the end, innocent citizens pay the price for those actions with life and limb.
...

Arab and foreign audiences of certain media organizations have questioned the Mission’s credibility because those organizations use the media to distort the facts. It will be difficult to overcome this problem unless there is political and media support for the Mission and its mandate. It is only natural that some negative incidents should occur as it conducts its activities because such incidents occur as a matter of course in similar missions.​
...

In Homs, Idlib and Hama, the Observer Mission witnessed acts of violence being committed against Government forces and civilians that resulted in several deaths and injuries. Examples of those acts include the bombing of a civilian bus, killing eight persons and injuring others, including women and children, and the bombing of a train carrying diesel oil. In another incident in Homs, a police bus was blown up, killing two police officers. A fuel pipeline and some small bridges were also bombed.​


The entire Arab League Syrian report can be seen here (http://www.columbia.edu/~hauben/Report_of_Arab_League_Observer_Mission.pdf).

This has been completely ignored by the US and the Arab League as they are pushing for an intervention in Syria and this report does not line up with what they want. Thus, I think an intervention in Syria is possible.


Yes, indeedy, the "Mighty Wurlitzer" cranks away playing only the CIA approved "NEWS."
 
Re: While Gunfire Echoes Inside Syria, A Cry For Help From A City Under Attack(edited

I would say that an intervention in Syria is possible. However, I would like to say that there is a lot of going on in regards to Syria.

In regards to Libya, there was no investigation into if the accusations against Gaddafi even held any weight. For example:

"Human rights organisations have cast doubt on claims of mass rape and other abuses perpetrated by forces loyal to Colonel Muammar Gaddafi, which have been widely used to justify Nato's war in Libya." (Amnesty questions claim that Gaddafi ordered rape as weapon of war - Africa - World - The Independent)

"Still, the rebels have offered their own far-fetched claims, like mass rapes by loyalist troops issued tablets of Viagra. Although the rebels have not offered credible proof, that claim is nonetheless the basis of an investigation by the International Criminal Court." (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/24/world/africa/24fog.html?_r=3&pagewanted=all)

"There have been no confirmed cases of that; supposedly there are many African prisoners of war being held in Benghazi, but conveniently journalists are not allowed to see them.There are, however, African guest workers, poorly paid migrant labor, many of whom, unarmed, have been labeled mercenaries." (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/24/world/africa/24fog.html?_r=2&pagewanted=all)​


In addition to this, there was little to no talk in the MSM about the rebels killing black Africans

"Across eastern Libya, rebel fighters and their supporters are detaining, intimidating and frequently beating African immigrants and black Libyans, accusing them of fighting as mercenaries on behalf of Kadafi, witnesses and human rights workers say.

In a few instances, rebels have executed suspected mercenaries captured in battle, according to Human Rights Watch and local Libyans." (Blacks In Libya | Libyan rebels accused of targeting blacks - Los Angeles Times)​


But the West did have a UN Mandate, thus they went in and bombed Libya and overthrew Gaddafi even though that last part was overstepping the UN mandate.

In Syria the situation is different as the US, France, and Britain are already aiding the Syrian rebels. According Philip Giraldi, a former CIA analyst, the Syrian rebels are being given weapons that are transported via "unmarked NATO airplanes," that "volunteers from the Libyan National Transitional Council" are being brought in to aid the rebels and that "French and British special forces trainers are on the ground, assisting the Syrian rebels while the CIA and U.S. Spec Ops are providing communications equipment and intelligence to assist the rebel cause, enabling the fighters to avoid concentrations of Syrian soldiers." (The American Conservative » NATO vs. Syria).

In addition to this, while the West is trying to get a UN mandate to possibly allow for intervention in Syria, they are ignoring the report that the Arab League observers came out with. Here are some excerpts:

The Mission determined that there is an armed entity that is not mentioned in the protocol. This development on the ground can undoubtedly be attributed to the excessive use of force by Syrian Government forces in response to protests that occurred before the deployment of the Mission demanding the fall of the regime. In some zones, this armed entity reacted by attacking Syrian security forces and citizens, causing the Government to respond with further violence. In the end, innocent citizens pay the price for those actions with life and limb.
...

Arab and foreign audiences of certain media organizations have questioned the Mission’s credibility because those organizations use the media to distort the facts. It will be difficult to overcome this problem unless there is political and media support for the Mission and its mandate. It is only natural that some negative incidents should occur as it conducts its activities because such incidents occur as a matter of course in similar missions.​
...

In Homs, Idlib and Hama, the Observer Mission witnessed acts of violence being committed against Government forces and civilians that resulted in several deaths and injuries. Examples of those acts include the bombing of a civilian bus, killing eight persons and injuring others, including women and children, and the bombing of a train carrying diesel oil. In another incident in Homs, a police bus was blown up, killing two police officers. A fuel pipeline and some small bridges were also bombed.​


The entire Arab League Syrian report can be seen here (http://www.columbia.edu/~hauben/Report_of_Arab_League_Observer_Mission.pdf).

This has been completely ignored by the US and the Arab League as they are pushing for an intervention in Syria and this report does not line up with what they want. Thus, I think an intervention in Syria is possible.


Yes, indeedy, the "Mighty Wurlitzer" cranks away playing only the CIA approved "NEWS."
 
Re: While Gunfire Echoes Inside Syria, A Cry For Help From A City Under Attack(edited

Very nice of Russia and China to veto the bill condemning the government crack-down.

Syria-protests-young-child.jpg
 
Re: While Gunfire Echoes Inside Syria, A Cry For Help From A City Under Attack(edited

Very nice of Russia and China to veto the bill condemning the government crack-down.

russia will do whatever china tells them to do.. and like it..
 
Re: While Gunfire Echoes Inside Syria, A Cry For Help From A City Under Attack(edited

Following is an exert from Obams speech on why we invaded Libya, after that is a link to what's happening in Syria. Can anyone explain why obama went into Libya but is content to let the same exact thing happen in Syria? Bush was accused of war for oil, could this be the same thing? USA doesn't get oil from Libya but remember, it's a world market.

<snip>


While Gunfire Echoes Inside Syria, A Cry For Help From A City Under Attack : The Two-Way : NPR


Would start by questioning that Obama ever "invaded Libya" in the first place. We didn't. We lobbed in a barrage of missiles from afar. No risk to American personnel.

Syria is a different environment and a different geography. And more opportunity for missiles getting lobbed back at us (or at Israel). The situation is Syria is "beehive" that we have no business or motivation to be kicking.
 
Re: While Gunfire Echoes Inside Syria, A Cry For Help From A City Under Attack(edited

I am starting to think Putin told obama not to get involved or else and obama whimpered away like a kicked dog.
 
Re: While Gunfire Echoes Inside Syria, A Cry For Help From A City Under Attack(edited

Russia's Mediterranean Fleet is based in Tartus, in Syria. They are currently facing down the GHW Bush as we speak.

Missed this post. Assuming it is accurate. That is a large excellent point.
 
Re: While Gunfire Echoes Inside Syria, A Cry For Help From A City Under Attack(edited

The Libyan intervention worked, because the rebels were relatively well-organized and the terrain that allowed easy coordination of air strikes with coalition forces. Syria's opposition is mostly made up of disorganized protesters and scattered pockets of armed resistance. The terrain is also very mountainous. At least at this stage armed intervention will not do much of anything.
 
Re: While Gunfire Echoes Inside Syria, A Cry For Help From A City Under Attack(edited

Putting all your normal american dem vs gop crap to one side this is a terrrible situation. Syrian army seem to be shelling random tagerts similar to Sarajevo and many civillians are being hunted down, watched a video of a man running under the cover of darkness to bury his own child and night was the only time he could do it without being at risk from shelling or snipers. WTF is the UN playing at? We say always say never again but yet here we are again.
 
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Re: While Gunfire Echoes Inside Syria, A Cry For Help From A City Under Attack(edited

russia will do whatever china tells them to do.. and like it..

:doh
Guess you never heard of the Sino-Soviet split
 
Re: While Gunfire Echoes Inside Syria, A Cry For Help From A City Under Attack(edited

Putting all your normal american dem vs gop crap to one side this is a terrrible situation. Syrian army seem to be shelling random tagerts similar to Sarajevo and many civillians are being hunted down, watched a video of a man running under the cover of darkness to bury his own child and night was the only time he could do it without being at risk from shelling or snipers. WTF is the UN playing at? We say always say never again but yet here we are again.


Pretty melodramatic summary. And your solution/reaction would be.....??
 
Re: While Gunfire Echoes Inside Syria, A Cry For Help From A City Under Attack(edited

Pretty melodramatic summary. And your solution/reaction would be.....??

melodramatic???? Hows that Bubble treating you?
 
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