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U.S. Marines Urinate On Dead Bodies In Afghanistan

Human Rights Watch reports that 1,633 Afghan civilians were killed in 2007 and 929 in 2006. And, those killed in U.S. bomb attacks are accounting for a greater and greater proportion of the civilian deaths as that war goes on. As the Rand Corporation predicts in such circumstances, this has only led to an increase in popular support for those resisting the U.S. military onslaught. In short, the war is counterproductive."
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Anyone have numbers for civilians killed in Afghan for 2008, 9, 10 or 11? If those numbers went down significantly (and I think they did), that ruins the doom-and-gloom of the report. Wasn't 08 about the time when the general in charge over there went 'hearts and minds' with baiting and precision hits for the terrorists and much less bombing?

At any rate, we certainly did not continue in the circumstances of 2006 to 2007; when civilian deaths from airstrikes tripled.

Was the report released during the 'push'?
 
"In the United States, violence accounts for approximately 51,000 deaths annually."CDC violence prevention page

People (especially the news) like to quote death statistics to make our presence seem more unpopular than it really is. There will always be people that are unhappy with a foreign military presence but it's not like everyone is against us.

Since many of our enemies dress just like everyone else it is a common propaganda tactic to say someone we killed was an innocent civilian when in fact they were not.
 
Paratrooper said:
"In the United States, violence accounts for approximately 51,000 deaths annually."CDC violence prevention page

People (especially the news) like to quote death statistics to make our presence seem more unpopular than it really is. There will always be people that are unhappy with a foreign military presence but it's not like everyone is against us.

Since many of our enemies dress just like everyone else it is a common propaganda tactic to say someone we killed was an innocent civilian when in fact they were not.
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Not sure everyone has to be against us for us being there not to be wrong, or that it is overall unpopular, even among those friendly. In any case, the image of us pissing on folks won't likely help much.
 
Dpetty said:
You dont seem to understand a terrorists motivation either... They arent lobbying for political change. They arent unionizing so they can get better treatment. They are on a religious crusade to kill everyone on the earth who will not embrace Islam. They make no effort to hide their intentions, so i see no reason why we should be scared of offending them. When we start changing our behavior based on a fear of their response, they win. Thats why they are called TERROR-ists! They rule through terror.
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Thanks for your opinion.

This is what the experts found in the their study commissioned by the Pentagon that I referenced earlier:

"The Rand Corporation, a conservative think-tank originally started by the U.S. Air Force, has produced a new report entitled, "How Terrorist Groups End - Lessons for Countering al Qaida." This study is important, for it reaches conclusions which may be surprising to the Bush Administration and to both presidential candidates. To wit, the study concludes that the "war on terrorism" has been a failure, and that the efforts against terrorism should not be characterized as a "war" at all. Rather, Rand suggests that the U.S. efforts at battling terrorism be considered, "counterterrorism" instead.

And, why is this so? Because, Rand concludes, after studying 648 terrorist groups between 1968 and 2006, that military operations against such groups are among the least effective means of success, achieving the desired effect in only 7% of the cases. As Rand explains, "[a]gainst most terrorist groups . . . military force is usually too blunt an instrument." Moreover, "[t]he use of substantial U.S. military power against terror groups also runs a significant risk of turning the local population against the government by killing civilians.

In terms of this latter observation, there is no better case-in-point right now than Afghanistan - the war that both candidates for President seem to embrace as a "the right war" contrary to all evidence. In Afghanistan, the U.S. military forces should properly be known as, "The Wedding Crashers," with the U.S. successfully bombing its fourth (4th) wedding party just this month, killing 47 civilians. According to the UN, 700 civilians have died in the Afghan conflict just this year. Human Rights Watch reports that 1,633 Afghan civilians were killed in 2007 and 929 in 2006. And, those killed in U.S. bomb attacks are accounting for a greater and greater proportion of the civilian deaths as that war goes on. As the Rand Corporation predicts in such circumstances, this has only led to an increase in popular support for those resisting the U.S. military onslaught. In short, the war is counterproductive."
 
Paratrooper said:
"In the United States, violence accounts for approximately 51,000 deaths annually."CDC violence prevention page

People (especially the news) like to quote death statistics to make our presence seem more unpopular than it really is. There will always be people that are unhappy with a foreign military presence but it's not like everyone is against us.

Since many of our enemies dress just like everyone else it is a common propaganda tactic to say someone we killed was an innocent civilian when in fact they were not.
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Exporting your violence does not endear you to anyone.
 
Grant said:
So you want to endear yourself to terrorists, huh?
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Well since you have no problem with people pissing on dead bodies, the next time one of your family members dies, please let us know where the viewing will be. I'm sure you or your family won't mind pissing on the body. It's just a hunk of dead flesh right?
 
ReverendHellh0und said:
I feel sorry for these Marines..... That they got caught. War is hell, don't film it.
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I do not think they "got caught", I think they were stupid to have it videoed. War zones and stress makes people do things they normally would not have. Too bad they were not more careful.
 
ReverendHellh0und said:
I feel sorry for these Marines..... That they got caught. War is hell, don't film it.
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I feel sorry for you because you feel sorry for marines that dishonored the Marines, and the US Military.
 
Catawba said:
I feel sorry for you because you feel sorry for marines that dishonored the Marines, and the US Military.
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You wouldn't understand hardship and war, stay on your couch and wolf down some more ring dings, chief. leave the fighting to the willing, it's not your speed. :2wave:
 
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Connery said:
I do not think they "got caught", I think they were stupid to have it videoed. War zones and stress makes people do things they normally would not have. Too bad they were not more careful.
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yeah it was pretty dumb to film it.
 
Catawba said:
I feel sorry for you because you feel sorry for marines that dishonored the Marines, and the US Military.
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They dishonored themselves more than anything else.

The fact is this situation is not an isolated incident throughout war in any era. Indeed this was very mild compared to some of the atrocities committed by any side in any war.
 
ReverendHellh0und said:
You wouldn't understand hardship and war, stay on your couch and wolf down some more ring dings, chief. leave the fighting to the willing, it's not your speed. :2wave:
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"Marine Corps Commandant Gen. James Amos said in a statement the behavior is "wholly inconsistent with the high standards of conduct and warrior ethos that we have demonstrated throughout our history."

Lt. Gen. Adrian Bradshaw, deputy commander of ISAF, called the actions on the video "disgusting."

"Any acts which treat the dead, enemy or friendly, with disrespect are utterly unacceptable and do not represent the standards we expect of coalition forces," Bradshaw said in a video statement. He said he was speaking on behalf of Allen, who is out of the country.

"It is difficult to say what long-term impacts this might have, and I would hesitate to get into speculation, but obviously any sort of footage, any sort of activity of this kind that is grossly against all the moral values that the coalition forces are standing for are very much working against our cause and against everything that we are standing for and that we are here for," said Brig. Gen. Carsten Jacobson, a NATO ISAF spokesman. "We will find the ones who are responsible and hold them accountable."

Marines ID two of the men in urination video - CNN
 
Connery said:
They dishonored themselves more than anything else.

The fact is this situation is not an isolated incident throughout war in any era. Indeed this was very mild compared to some of the atrocities committed by any side in any war.
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And none of it should be condoned.
 
Catawba said:
"Marine Corps Commandant Gen. James Amos said in a statement the behavior is "wholly inconsistent with the high standards of conduct and warrior ethos that we have demonstrated throughout our history."

Lt. Gen. Adrian Bradshaw, deputy commander of ISAF, called the actions on the video "disgusting."

"Any acts which treat the dead, enemy or friendly, with disrespect are utterly unacceptable and do not represent the standards we expect of coalition forces," Bradshaw said in a video statement. He said he was speaking on behalf of Allen, who is out of the country.

"It is difficult to say what long-term impacts this might have, and I would hesitate to get into speculation, but obviously any sort of footage, any sort of activity of this kind that is grossly against all the moral values that the coalition forces are standing for are very much working against our cause and against everything that we are standing for and that we are here for," said Brig. Gen. Carsten Jacobson, a NATO ISAF spokesman. "We will find the ones who are responsible and hold them accountable."

Marines ID two of the men in urination video - CNN
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yes, and in this thread, i say a reduction in rank and pay and an article 15 is appropriate. What do you think should happen to these Marines? Jail?
 
Catawba said:
And none of it should be condoned.
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It is not condoned. Nevertheless, your position is that is brings shame upon their organization and the US Military as a whole. I disagree The military will take care of these soldiers within the parameters set forth within the UCMJ.
 
It's no surprise that the military is going to come out and do damage control. While I don't condone what they have done I understand how you can build up strong feelings against a group of terrorist that have set up a ied that killed your battle buddies or sniped them. Once you get them, it is kind of anti-climatic, it doesn't bring back the buddies that have died it just prevents them for killing more of your buddies.

I honestly feel like we should never have had press, and cameras in a war zone in the first place. War is hell and if you don't want to see this type of stuff happen, do a better job on the diplomacy front so we don't have to fight.
 
ReverendHellh0und said:
yes, and in this thread, i say a reduction in rank and pay and an article 15 is appropriate. What do you think should happen to these Marines? Jail?
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A dishonorable discharge for dishonorable behavior.
 
Catawba said:
A dishonorable discharge for dishonorable behavior.
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The "dishonorable" behavior will carry a lifetime of shame and consequences on it's own. To further impact these lives for this act is onerous and unduly punitive.
 
Catawba said:
A dishonorable discharge for dishonorable behavior.
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So these guys lives should be ruined over a mistake they made?


What about the wiki leaks traitor, can you link to your calling for his dishonorable discharge? Hanks
 
Connery said:
The "dishonorable" behavior will carry a lifetime of shame and consequences on it's own. To further impact these lives for this act is onerous and unduly punitive.
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I won't be part of the decision making process on their punishment. However, I was asked my opinion. Actions have consequences.
 
VanceMack said:
Jump in line to take their place.
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Were these Marines drafted, or did they join voluntarily?

Afraid I am too old, however I have served my country, as did my Dad, Granddad, and my Son.
 
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