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Thread: U.S. Marines Urinate On Dead Bodies In Afghanistan

  1. #831
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    Re: U.S. Marines Urinate On Dead Bodies In Afghanistan

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePlayDrive View Post
    Where did I say that? And I will keep repeating my actual argument when people learn it.
    Im gonna have to remove myself from this conversation then, cause it really seems to me that EVERYONE agrees this was a dumb dumb moment for the marines and they should not have been done what they did.
    At this point i think people are arguing over the APPROPRIATE level of disdain we should be showing... Some say more, some say to less, but really, that is a dumb thing to argue about.
    If there is anyone here who is trying to make a different point within the last few pages, they havent done a very good job of putting their thoughts across.

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    Re: U.S. Marines Urinate On Dead Bodies In Afghanistan

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    Yes, you're right. I went back early on in the thread a moment ago and see that Haymarket brought that up early on. You call their actions "gratuitous and unprofessional." I agree. I don't agree with comparing them to torture, calling them atrocious, horrific, etc. Haymarket, Greenville, MadLib and others, including myself, see the irony of caring more about soldiers pissing on a dead body than actually killing them. Not a valid point to you? Okay.

    As I said, this irony will resonate with some posters and not others.
    Who compared them to torture?

    Also, it would be ironic if the subject were general morality or care for humanity. It's not. Moreover, the flawed logic rests on the premise that people do actually care more about soldiers pissing on a dead body than killing. That premise is probably false for a lot of people.

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    Re: U.S. Marines Urinate On Dead Bodies In Afghanistan

    Quote Originally Posted by Dpetty View Post
    At this point i think people are arguing over the APPROPRIATE level of disdain we should be showing... Some say more, some say to less, but really, that is a dumb thing to argue about.
    Yeah, the problem with this is that one side is attributing a certain level of disdain (and terrorist sympathizing) to the other side that doesn't actually exist. When people understand that, the problem will be solved.

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    Re: U.S. Marines Urinate On Dead Bodies In Afghanistan

    I think what most people are trying to say is that yea, they probably shouldn't have done that, if for any reason for the image of the Marines as a unit and the USA as a country.

    However, when was the last time you heard disdain about the Viet Kong (sp?) killing Americans, cutting off the penises and stuffing them into their mouths while their bodies were tied to a tree? I mean c'mon. War is ugly. Soldiers do bad things. But peeing on a dead body? Really?

    What about the 3 links in that guys post about the Chinese burning Americans bodies and such? I mean where is uproar? Why are there seemingly more Americans willing to stand up for the dead bodies of TERRORISTS than for them to stand up for the rights of our own citizens not to be attacked on our own homeland by these people?

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    Re: U.S. Marines Urinate On Dead Bodies In Afghanistan

    Ok, impromptu poll for those who've commented: If non-military punishment ranges in severity from jaywalking to per-meditated murder, where does this offense rate?
    My examples (subject to interpretation and feel free to use your own):
    Jaywalking
    Speeding
    Public intoxication
    Drunk and disorderly
    Driving while intoxicated
    Vandalism
    Petty Larceny
    Grand theft
    Domestic abuse
    Assault
    Battery
    Vehicular manslaughter
    Manslaughter
    Murder
    Pr-meditated murder

    On my list, I'd rate this somewhere in the range of vandalism, larceny or maybe grand theft (give or take). What about you?
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    Re: U.S. Marines Urinate On Dead Bodies In Afghanistan

    Quote Originally Posted by bicycleman View Post
    Then you must think it equally disgusting when Somalians dragged the naked and battered bodies of American soldiers through the streets of Mogadishu.
    And why do you remember the soldiers who were killed in Mogadishu? I mean there have been thousands of young American GIs killed in the Middle East but why does Mogadishu stand out so much?

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    Re: U.S. Marines Urinate On Dead Bodies In Afghanistan

    Quote Originally Posted by GreenvilleGrows View Post
    No reasonable person is saying that the act was appropriate or good. I, for one, am not saying that pointing out that it was inappropriate or bad blows things out of proportion (in fact, I said it was bad). I have no problems condemning the behavior or with Clinton/Panetta saying "“it is absolutely inconsistent with American values, with the standards of behavior that we expect from our military personnel.” or the idea that the behavior was "deplorable".

    But, when Clinton said “Anyone found to have participated or known about it, having engaged in such conduct, must be held fully accountable.” she (perhaps intentionally) left the door wide open for interpretation. It's been called "inhumane" (ironic) and "inexcusable". And, Panetta has said ""Those found to have engaged in such conduct will be held accountable to the fullest extent." (Less open for interpretation, and much stronger language).

    I am concerned that we train our young men to fortify their own emotions enough to seek to kill another person, but then will hang the same young men out to dry for their lack of reverence. Punish to some extent? - Yes. Punish to the fullest extent? - No.
    It is one of the 10 commandments of military service: "thou shalt not create bad publicity for your command, your branch of service, nor your country". That is why it is fullest extent. No public disclosure, 30/30. Public, international incident, full extent.

    A story from when I served. In Dubai where the port was they had literally thousands of small pickups waiting to go to Kuwait when it was fully liberated and ready for them(ford pickups to be exact). One night while in port, 3 sailors, while very drunk, decided they wanted to go for a joyride. They went and looked at the pickups and discovered they where unlocked, keyed where in them, and they had full tanks of gas. Off joyriding they went. Now normally, drunk driving would be handled at the command level and usually result in 30/30 or 60/60 and alcohol rehab(I forget what the navy program was called). In this case, since they had created an international incident, it went to court martial and they all got BCDs. The whole reason for the court martial and BCDs was it was bad publicity and an international incident.
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    Re: U.S. Marines Urinate On Dead Bodies In Afghanistan

    I'll try to keep it simple. What the defenders don't seem to be getting is that the bad guys are the bad guys because they do stuff like this. We are the good guys partly because we don't do stuff like this. Yes, we go to war, supposedly if there's no other option, and we do it committedly and efficiently and retain our morality by setting minimum standards of behaviour for ourselves, and by not behaving like the bad guys do. Why bother if our only standard is that we're not QUITE as bad as them? That's a weasel argument.
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    Re: U.S. Marines Urinate On Dead Bodies In Afghanistan

    Quote Originally Posted by GreenvilleGrows View Post
    Ok, impromptu poll for those who've commented: If non-military punishment ranges in severity from jaywalking to per-meditated murder, where does this offense rate?
    My examples (subject to interpretation and feel free to use your own):
    Jaywalking
    Speeding
    Public intoxication
    Drunk and disorderly
    Driving while intoxicated
    Vandalism
    Petty Larceny
    Grand theft
    Domestic abuse
    Assault
    Battery
    Vehicular manslaughter
    Manslaughter
    Murder
    Pr-meditated murder

    On my list, I'd rate this somewhere in the range of vandalism, larceny or maybe grand theft (give or take). What about you?
    Does not work that way. In all of those cases factors like prior record, the specifics of the case, how badly the command or branch wants to rehabilitate the soldier versus get rid of him.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

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    Re: U.S. Marines Urinate On Dead Bodies In Afghanistan

    Quote Originally Posted by dontworrybehappy View Post
    I think what most people are trying to say is that yea, they probably shouldn't have done that, if for any reason for the image of the Marines as a unit and the USA as a country.
    Agreed.

    However, when was the last time you heard disdain about the Viet Kong (sp?) killing Americans, cutting off the penises and stuffing them into their mouths while their bodies were tied to a tree? I mean c'mon. War is ugly. Soldiers do bad things. But peeing on a dead body? Really?
    Vietnam was a long time ago. I can't imagine people would rehash that over and over again except in history classes.

    What about the 3 links in that guys post about the Chinese burning Americans bodies and such? I mean where is uproar? Why are there seemingly more Americans willing to stand up for the dead bodies of TERRORISTS than for them to stand up for the rights of our own citizens not to be attacked on our own homeland by these people?
    Three points:

    1. In my experience, most people find violent acts pretty despicable in general.

    2. In my experience, most Americans think violent actions of our enemies against Americans are personally despicable.

    3. In my experience, most people have high expectations for their military and when they are disappointed, as in this case, they react accordingly. You are putting the emphasis on the wrong thing when you accuse people of "standing up for the dead bodies of terrorists" because nobody is doing that. What we're standing up for is the idea that Americans don't do what the enemy expects us to and what we would not tolerate the enemy doing to our own soldiers.

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