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Thread: U.S. Marines Urinate On Dead Bodies In Afghanistan

  1. #641
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    Re: U.S. Marines Urinate On Dead Bodies In Afghanistan

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    No sir. I did not serve in the military.

    My goal in all of this is a pretty simple one:

    1- have no wars
    2- if we do have them, its the last possible resort that is absolutely necessary - WW2 for example
    3- fight like hell and do what you have to do to win as fast as possible and bring as many of our own home safe and sound as is possible
    4- conduct yourselves honorably and according to the rules you adopt for yourself

    thats about it Rev.

    One other thing....... my heart does go out to these kids --- and being 62 years of age - that is what they are to me. I take my hat off to them and salute them for serving their country. That is more than I ever did. But they did break our own rules and now have put the safety and lives of other Americans in harms way as a result of their youthful indiscretion. And they will pay a price for it. I hope it is a price they can pay and move on to better things in their lives.

    On a very personal note: I remember when I was 16 years old and had my first car I did something really stupid that could have ruined my life. At somebodys house, in a party type situation, I was pulling away from the front of the house when another kid spread eagled himself upon the hood of my 56 Chevy. I revved the engine, slipped it into drive and shot the car forward a few feet and then slammed on the brakes. He flew off like a leaf in a stiff October wind. He got some scrapes from the cement but nothing was broken and very little harm was done. Every once in a while I think about that. What if that young man had smashed his skull and died? My life would have been very very different.

    Lets investigate this properly. Lets handle it properly according to our own rules. And lets hope these young Americans can serve their sentence and move on with their lives as best as possible.


    I agree with this 100%. There is a code of honor, I've refused orders twice, and in the service, you better be damn right if you refuse an order. cause if it's not an illegal order, you're ****ed. I'm proud of how I maintained my civility in such an uncivil world., I also, though have compassion for those who may have failed. These kids, did a dumb immature thing. If it wasn't picked up by the media, they would have gotten what usually happens, Now I am afraid, it will be much worse for them.
    Let evil swiftly befall those who have wrongly condemned us

  2. #642
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    Re: U.S. Marines Urinate On Dead Bodies In Afghanistan

    Quote Originally Posted by Dpetty View Post
    Number 4 contradicts number 3. Or at least holds the potential for contradiction.

    I disagree..........
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    Re: U.S. Marines Urinate On Dead Bodies In Afghanistan

    Quote Originally Posted by Dpetty View Post
    Number 4 contradicts number 3. Or at least holds the potential for contradiction.
    Yes it could. I cannot argue with that - at least on the potential of it.

    I am of two minds on this and am truly split. When I look at terrible acts of all our war - Shermans march to the sea or the dropping of the atomic bomb on Japan - I wish neither had happened. But part of me says that maybe an all out effort like that helped end the war and prevented even more death and suffering. I don't know but I wonder.
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    Re: U.S. Marines Urinate On Dead Bodies In Afghanistan

    Quote Originally Posted by ReverendHellh0und View Post
    I agree with this 100%. There is a code of honor, I've refused orders twice, and in the service, you better be damn right if you refuse an order. cause if it's not an illegal order, you're ****ed. I'm proud of how I maintained my civility in such an uncivil world., I also, though have compassion for those who may have failed. These kids, did a dumb immature thing. If it wasn't picked up by the media, they would have gotten what usually happens, Now I am afraid, it will be much worse for them.
    Especially now that the SecDef is pissed off. (no pun intended)
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
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    Re: U.S. Marines Urinate On Dead Bodies In Afghanistan

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Yes it does. I cannot argue with that.

    I am of two minds on this and am truly split. When I look at terrible acts of all our war - Shermans march to the sea or the dropping of the atomic bomb on Japan - I wish neither had happened. But part of me says that maybe an all out effort like that helped end the war and prevented even more death and suffering. I don't know but I wonder.

    But was the acts dishonroable? WW2 as you say was a just war, we razed entire cities with air raids as did our enemies. I like to believe we evolved some, but at the same time, one has to look at war in it's historical context.
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    Re: U.S. Marines Urinate On Dead Bodies In Afghanistan

    Quote Originally Posted by ReverendHellh0und View Post
    But was the acts dishonroable? WW2 as you say was a just war, we razed entire cities with air raids as did our enemies. I like to believe we evolved some, but at the same time, one has to look at war in it's historical context.
    Good question Rev.

    I don't know the answer despite long hours spent on the topic. My dad was a WW2 soldier who spent parts of two years in a German prison camp including one run by the Gestapo. I think about guys like him and how the Japanese died on those islands in 44 and 45 when the end was obviously in sight. We had the war department studies that if they fought the same way on the mainland, it could take a million US lives to take the island. In hindsight, that was probably an overestimation but even if was fudged by a factor of triple - that is till 333,000 dead Americans. That is 333,000 dead kids just like my dad. So we did what we did and it ended it.

    But I have been to Hiroshima and spent time in the Peace Park and it is a sobering and sad thing to do. I have read about the victims - almost all civilians and disproportionately women and children and do not feel any pride about our victory at that cost.

    But I do not condemn what we did and do not judge what we did.
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    Re: U.S. Marines Urinate On Dead Bodies In Afghanistan

    Quote Originally Posted by ReverendHellh0und View Post
    But was the acts dishonroable? WW2 as you say was a just war, we razed entire cities with air raids as did our enemies. I like to believe we evolved some, but at the same time, one has to look at war in it's historical context.
    Well the technology has allowed us to fight more "civilized", so to say. Although purposeful atrocities occurred in WW2, they didn't have the precision-guided munitions we have now. So of course collateral damage and death was expected, as you know.



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  8. #648
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    Re: U.S. Marines Urinate On Dead Bodies In Afghanistan

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Good question Rev.

    I don't know the answer despite long hours spent on the topic. My dad was a WW2 soldier who spent parts of two years in a German prison camp including one run by the Gestapo. I think about guys like him and how the Japanese died on those islands in 44 and 45 when the end was obviously in sight. We had the war department studies that if they fought the same way on the mainland, it could take a million US lives to take the island. In hindsight, that was probably an overestimation but even if was fudged by a factor of triple - that is till 333,000 dead Americans. That is 333,000 dead kids just like my dad. So we did what we did and it ended it.

    But I have been to Hiroshima and spent time in the Peace Park and it is a sobering and sad thing to do. I have read about the victims - almost all civilians and disproportionately women and children and do not feel any pride about our victory at that cost.

    But I do not condemn what we did and do not judge what we did.


    I don't think your feelings are that far off from the crew of the enola gay.

    They viewed it, rightfully so, (I agree) as the "least abhorrent" choice.


    BBC NEWS | Americas | Enola Gay crew 'have no regrets'
    Let evil swiftly befall those who have wrongly condemned us

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    Re: U.S. Marines Urinate On Dead Bodies In Afghanistan

    Quote Originally Posted by ReverendHellh0und View Post
    I agree with this 100%. There is a code of honor, I've refused orders twice, and in the service, you better be damn right if you refuse an order. cause if it's not an illegal order, you're ****ed. I'm proud of how I maintained my civility in such an uncivil world., I also, though have compassion for those who may have failed. These kids, did a dumb immature thing. If it wasn't picked up by the media, they would have gotten what usually happens, Now I am afraid, it will be much worse for them.
    Depends on where in the chain of command (see below) you are in the US military. . .

    Oil companies/DoD Contractors/Hedge funds/Drug cartels -> CINC -> SECDEF -> UCC Commanders -> Generals -> ...

    The group to the left in orange is allowed to freely give out illegal orders, and almost always does, and in most cases, those below the orange line are expected to follow the illegal orders or else be court martialed.

    However, if any member of the orange group gives out an illegal order, but doesn't want that illegal order to be traced to him/her, he/she can refuse to acknowledge it, and just punish subordinate members for following it, should a controversy over the order erupt.

    However, the chain of command is absolute regardless of position in the diagram above. If the CINC, for example, disobeys a legal or illegal order from the CEO of Exxon, he will be impeached, removed from office, and jailed. Same thing applies to a SECDEF that disobeys a legal or illegal order from the CINC, he will be fired.
    Last edited by solletica; 01-13-12 at 01:53 PM.

  10. #650
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    Re: U.S. Marines Urinate On Dead Bodies In Afghanistan

    Quote Originally Posted by solletica View Post
    Depends on where in the chain of command (see below) you are in the US military. . .

    Oil companies/DoD Contractors/Hedge funds -> CINC -> SECDEF -> UCC Commanders -> Generals -> ...

    The group to the left in orange is allowed to freely give out illegal orders, and almost always does, and in most cases, those below the orange line are expected to follow the illegal orders or else be court martialed.

    However, if any member of the orange group gives out an illegal order, but doesn't want that illegal order to be traced to him/her, he/she can refuse to acknowledge it, and just punish subordinate members for following it, should a controversy over the order erupt.



    <------- Former DOD security contractor. You are incorrect.
    Let evil swiftly befall those who have wrongly condemned us

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