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Thread: Federal court blocks Oklahoma ban on Shariah law

  1. #11
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    Re: Federal court blocks Oklahoma ban on Shariah law

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    Not very unusual. Most contracts between companies from different countries specify that they are governed either by the law of one of the countries or by some instrument of international law. That's probably the most common one, but international law or foreign law comes up in a lot of circumstances. For example, if you have a couple and one of them claims they were married in Canada and the other claims they were never officially married, resolving it would require an analysis of Canadian marriage law.
    People also sue in US court under principles of international treaties and the international laws that stem therefrom...

    (just throwing in another example)

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    Re: Federal court blocks Oklahoma ban on Shariah law

    Quote Originally Posted by Aderleth View Post
    People also sue in US court under principles of international treaties and the international laws that stem therefrom...

    (just throwing in another example)
    Yes and no. You can only sue somebody in US court based on a US law. International law comes into it secondarily. For example, if somebody breaches a contract with you and the contract says it is governed by international law, you can sue in the US because breaching a contract is a violation of US law, but then the actual substance of the case is determined by international law. But, if international law just said "from here on out it is illegal to wear green" you couldn't sue people in US courts for wearing green because there would be no cause of action.

    That said, many of the treaties the US has signed are now in fact US law. Either they are self executing, so just by ratifying them they because US law, or the legislature actively passed laws to execute the treaties. Not all of them though. For example, we violate the international declaration of human rights constantly, but courts have found that although we ratified it, it is not self executing, so you can't sue under it in US court. Also, we have a statute called the Alien Tort Statute that says that you can sue a non-citizen that is in the US for torts they committed that violate international law.

    So it's kind of like you need a hook in US law to allow you to sue in the first place, but once you have that, the actual case is often determined by applying international law.

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    Re: Federal court blocks Oklahoma ban on Shariah law

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    All this anti-Sharia nonsense is just transparent bigotry. Muslims make up 0.3% of the population of the US. Obviously Sharia law is never going to take root in our legal system. It's just an excuse for them to express their hatred of Muslims.
    How can you know that for a fact? Things change in America. For example, our grandparents would not have thought the US ethnic population would have shifted to what it is today.
    Our laws are our laws. Why consider others.

    It still amazes me if someone dislikes something the bigotry card or race card is played. There could be other reasons for not liking Shariah law.
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    Re: Federal court blocks Oklahoma ban on Shariah law

    Quote Originally Posted by hazlnut View Post
    Do legislators in these backwards bigoted states not own a copy of the U.S. Constitution?

    I guess Obama should make sure there's money in the federal budget to send a copy of the U.S. Constitution to some of these governors and legislators.
    Are blue states embracing Sharia law?
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
    "Fly-over" country voted, and The Donald is now POTUS.

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    Re: Federal court blocks Oklahoma ban on Shariah law

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    No American court should ever cite foreign laws period. If there are issues with a law then the elected officials in the US who who authored the law should be consulted or if they are dead then their notes, writings or reasons why the law was enacted should be consulted.
    A substantial portion of our laws that were enacted in the first century of this country's existence were lifted directly from English common law. American law did not represent a substantial departure from English law, but rather a continuation with a few different ground rules (the constitution and bill of rights). Our laws have diverged somewhat since then, but it is completely impossible to divorce American law from its English roots.

    Beat your chest with false patriotism (really just arrogance) all you like, but learn about the law before you make absurd criticisms about it.

    As to the nonsense about Sharia law. The only way that Sharia principals can be adopted into American law is either within a contract, or within arbitration. And both of those require mutual consent from the various parties to apply. There is no way within American law for a sudden application of Sharia principals to anyone who does not agree to it. It simply doesn't work that way. Take your bigotry somewhere else.
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    Re: Federal court blocks Oklahoma ban on Shariah law

    Quote Originally Posted by mike2810 View Post
    How can you know that for a fact? Things change in America. For example, our grandparents would not have thought the US ethnic population would have shifted to what it is today.
    Our laws are our laws. Why consider others.

    It still amazes me if someone dislikes something the bigotry card or race card is played. There could be other reasons for not liking Shariah law.
    zzzz the standard Republican "I'm not a bigot, I'm just too stupid to understand that what I am doing it bigotry" defense... Does that ever work on anybody?

    I really don't care whether their bigotry was created by a flat out desire to harm people that are different from them, by a desire to make themselves feel superior, or by incomprehensibly dense ignorance. Whatever their problem is, it need to be rooted out and dealt with.

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    Re: Federal court blocks Oklahoma ban on Shariah law

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    Yes and no. You can only sue somebody in US court based on a US law. International law comes into it secondarily. For example, if somebody breaches a contract with you and the contract says it is governed by international law, you can sue in the US because breaching a contract is a violation of US law, but then the actual substance of the case is determined by international law. But, if international law just said "from here on out it is illegal to wear green" you couldn't sue people in US courts for wearing green because there would be no cause of action.

    That said, many of the treaties the US has signed are now in fact US law. Either they are self executing, so just by ratifying them they because US law, or the legislature actively passed laws to execute the treaties. Not all of them though. For example, we violate the international declaration of human rights constantly, but courts have found that although we ratified it, it is not self executing, so you can't sue under it in US court. Also, we have a statute called the Alien Tort Statute that says that you can sue a non-citizen that is in the US for torts they committed that violate international law.

    So it's kind of like you need a hook in US law to allow you to sue in the first place, but once you have that, the actual case is often determined by applying international law.
    I should have been more clear about what I meant. Obviously you cannot normally sue someone directly in US court under the provisions of international law. What I meant is that there are contexts in which US courts are used as a vehicle for American citizens to enforce actions against foreigners and foreign assets due to provisions of treaties and other international law bodies. I'd have to look up the details (it's been a while since I took international public law in law school, and I seem to have erased my notes that far back), but there are ways that that happens. The net effect is that foreign bodies of law have an impact on the manner in which a US court makes its decision.

    Similarly, in the context of human rights law, we have the Alien Torts Act, which allows an alien to bring a civil action in US court for a violation of various treaties and the law of nations. Obviously this has the effect of causing a US court to address the principles of legal bodies outside of US law.

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    Re: Federal court blocks Oklahoma ban on Shariah law

    Quote Originally Posted by Aderleth View Post
    I should have been more clear about what I meant. Obviously you cannot normally sue someone directly in US court under the provisions of international law.
    Yeah, you got it. I just wanted that to be clear so the wingnuts on here didn't run around screaming about how the UN is taking over the world or whatever.

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    Re: Federal court blocks Oklahoma ban on Shariah law

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    zzzz the standard Republican "I'm not a bigot, I'm just too stupid to understand that what I am doing it bigotry" defense... Does that ever work on anybody?

    I really don't care whether their bigotry was created by a flat out desire to harm people that are different from them, by a desire to make themselves feel superior, or by incomprehensibly dense ignorance. Whatever their problem is, it need to be rooted out and dealt with.
    and its the same old liberal defense. they don't agree with me so they must be a bigot.
    "I can explain it to you but, I can't understand it for you"

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    Re: Federal court blocks Oklahoma ban on Shariah law

    Quote Originally Posted by mike2810 View Post
    and its the same old liberal defense. they don't agree with me so they must be a bigot.
    It isn't really debatable whether a law that gives lower status to one religion than other religions is bigotry. Of course it is. That doesn't require any speculation or anything, that's just bigotry on its face.

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