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Thread: How Long Should We Help the Unemployed?

  1. #61
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    Re: How Long Should We Help the Unemployed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    So I'm going to disagree with you here. People don't take care of each other any more and the reason is because there's no sense of community. In the long ago past, people knew each other and helped each other because they were part of their society. They met in churches, at schools, etc. The people in the community worked for a company that was in the city or town and the employees spoke and socialized with their managers and the owners of the companies. Things were done face to face. Today in comparison, more and more people reject the church. They spend more time online emailing or texting than on the phone or face to face. Many of us email each other when we sit no further than 6 feet away. Schools are larger, regionalized - kids are a name in a database. People are a name in a database and there is no personality or community any longer. Sure we might get all up in arms about some new tax and all show up at the town hall to complain but we're not connected like we were in the past. We're DISCONNECTED and so we don't take care of each other through the churches or charities.... because of that fact many (especially our liberal friends) see the gap and state that government must step in and take over. The same way government must step in everywhere.

    So what we're left with is a government that can't tie it's own shoes without spending billion of tax dollars and decades of passing new laws about the shoes and types of shoelaces which can be used, who then starts to take over general societal functions where people have decided they don't want to do it any longer or are not interested. The 99 weeks issue is indicative of this --- people who are unemployed who made 75K at their last job don't want to take a job for 40K. Why? The reason is if they take that job and need to leave, their new unemployment check is reflective of their last job which was 40K, not 75K so they get less money - so they don't want to take that job, especially if it's just something to tide them over. They'd rather sit it out for 99 weeks - the down side to that is once they're out for that long, it's even MORE difficult to get a job. The only time it works is if the person doesn't give a squirt about the unemployment and they want to work and do whatever is necessary to feed their family. More and more people would rather sit on their couch and eat cheetos, email in their online claim form that they submitted for 10 jobs this week, and collect their paycheck. It's sad that the extension of unemployment which has the best of intentions, actually drives the wrong behavior and teaches people the wrong message which is: Stay home, collect until it runs out, and don't take a job for less money than you were making or you'll get penalized if they lay you off again.
    I won't disagree with you , but it begs the question whos fault is this? My take it is us and not the govt. Your post is a sad commentary of the social state of the US. That is why I like living in smaller towns where we do know our neighbors and help each other.
    "I can explain it to you but, I can't understand it for you"

  2. #62
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    Re: How Long Should We Help the Unemployed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    So I'm going to disagree with you here. People don't take care of each other any more and the reason is because there's no sense of community. In the long ago past, people knew each other and helped each other because they were part of their society. They met in churches, at schools, etc. The people in the community worked for a company that was in the city or town and the employees spoke and socialized with their managers and the owners of the companies. Things were done face to face. Today in comparison, more and more people reject the church. They spend more time online emailing or texting than on the phone or face to face. Many of us email each other when we sit no further than 6 feet away. Schools are larger, regionalized - kids are a name in a database. People are a name in a database and there is no personality or community any longer. Sure we might get all up in arms about some new tax and all show up at the town hall to complain but we're not connected like we were in the past. We're DISCONNECTED and so we don't take care of each other through the churches or charities.... because of that fact many (especially our liberal friends) see the gap and state that government must step in and take over. The same way government must step in everywhere.

    So what we're left with is a government that can't tie it's own shoes without spending billion of tax dollars and decades of passing new laws about the shoes and types of shoelaces which can be used, who then starts to take over general societal functions where people have decided they don't want to do it any longer or are not interested. The 99 weeks issue is indicative of this --- people who are unemployed who made 75K at their last job don't want to take a job for 40K. Why? The reason is if they take that job and need to leave, their new unemployment check is reflective of their last job which was 40K, not 75K so they get less money - so they don't want to take that job, especially if it's just something to tide them over. They'd rather sit it out for 99 weeks - the down side to that is once they're out for that long, it's even MORE difficult to get a job. The only time it works is if the person doesn't give a squirt about the unemployment and they want to work and do whatever is necessary to feed their family. More and more people would rather sit on their couch and eat cheetos, email in their online claim form that they submitted for 10 jobs this week, and collect their paycheck. It's sad that the extension of unemployment which has the best of intentions, actually drives the wrong behavior and teaches people the wrong message which is: Stay home, collect until it runs out, and don't take a job for less money than you were making or you'll get penalized if they lay you off again.
    We agree to disagree. I think the gov't put its foot in the door during the Great Depression and never took it out. Instead, it replaced that foot with its whole body and now they are in the door, in our living room, in our lives. The deChristianizing (is that a word) of our country by a gov't that says its okay to be a malcontent, the dehumanization of society by first liberals, and then "conservatives" who fell in lock step, by putting everyone into a class, and the offering of benefits and entitlements to everyone who will take them are a few ways this has happened. I think if gov't butted out and let it go for a few years we would realize our folly and correct it. The problem is, just like a heroin addict, society would yell and scream about "where's the gov't? whose gonna bail me out of this?" until politicians caved because they care more about being re-elected than anything else.
    “Mr. Speaker, I once again find myself compelled to vote against the annual budget resolution for a very simple reason: it makes government bigger.” ― Ron Paul
    Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of Liberty. – Thomas Jefferson

  3. #63
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    Re: How Long Should We Help the Unemployed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackstone View Post
    Federal tax monies used to provide a minimum level of income for the unemployed is an unconstitutional program which invites moral hazard for both those receiving the assistance and those providing it. Why should an individual, merely from the fact that he paid income tax and now finds himself unemployed be subsidized for not working? It is nobody else's responsibility - not the government, not society, not the taxpayer, not his neighbor - to provide that individual with a job, with an income, or with an education. It is solely the responsibility of the individual to seek, acquire and retain these things. A country which does not promote that is instead promoting self-defeating ideas which lead to the moral decay of both the individual and the civilization at-large.

    Here's a thought for people without a job: drastically downsize your expenses, sell assets, remain out of debt and don't consider any job "beneath" you. The people receiving government assistance rarely take common sense measures like these to alleviate their own circumstances. They are not less "fortunate" than others. They are not unluckier than anyone else. They arrived in their situation - or remain there - because of the choices they make. Financial assistance to the unemployed only discourages those people from making the kind of hard decisions they will eventually be forced to make anyway. Much as no bank is too big to fail, no individual is too small to fail either. Welfare, in all its forms, is wasteful and corrupting whether the money lands in a bank vault or a family checking account.
    Quote Originally Posted by MarineTpartier View Post
    We agree to disagree. I think the gov't put its foot in the door during the Great Depression and never took it out. Instead, it replaced that foot with its whole body and now they are in the door, in our living room, in our lives. The deChristianizing (is that a word) of our country by a gov't that says its okay to be a malcontent, the dehumanization of society by first liberals, and then "conservatives" who fell in lock step, by putting everyone into a class, and the offering of benefits and entitlements to everyone who will take them are a few ways this has happened. I think if gov't butted out and let it go for a few years we would realize our folly and correct it. The problem is, just like a heroin addict, society would yell and scream about "where's the gov't? whose gonna bail me out of this?" until politicians caved because they care more about being re-elected than anything else.
    The ultra conservative position doesn't get more cliche than this.

    Look fellas these are nice sentiments, but facts are: jobs are fewer and far between every day. At least jobs that pay a liveable wage. i listen to these people opine about how the average unemployeed Americans are welfare queens taking it easy while they collect a check. The reality is, these people are terrified that they may not be able to feed their families. Ironically, many ultra conservatives may eventually find themselves standing in line for unemployment. How opinionated will they be then?
    “In politics, stupidity is not a handicap.” -Napoleon

  4. #64
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    Re: How Long Should We Help the Unemployed?

    Quote Originally Posted by evanescence View Post
    The ultra conservative position doesn't get more cliche than this.

    Look fellas these are nice sentiments, but facts are: jobs are fewer and far between every day. At least jobs that pay a liveable wage. i listen to these people opine about how the average unemployeed Americans are welfare queens taking it easy while they collect a check. The reality is, these people are terrified that they may not be able to feed their families. Ironically, many ultra conservatives may eventually find themselves standing in line for unemployment. How opinionated will they be then?
    Ultra-conservatives shouldn't be in line at all... they should be out finding work wherever they can. I am proud that I've never taken a dime of unemployment and if I have my wish, I never will.
    “I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on what’s being proposed here, he’d agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute.” - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


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    Re: How Long Should We Help the Unemployed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    Ultra-conservatives shouldn't be in line at all... they should be out finding work wherever they can. I am proud that I've never taken a dime of unemployment and if I have my wish, I never will.
    Shouldn't, maybe. So if an ultra conservative got on unemployment, would he or she be a hypocrite?
    “In politics, stupidity is not a handicap.” -Napoleon

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    Re: How Long Should We Help the Unemployed?

    Quote Originally Posted by evanescence View Post
    Shouldn't, maybe. So if an ultra conservative got on unemployment, would he or she be a hypocrite?
    In my opinion, yes.
    “I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on what’s being proposed here, he’d agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute.” - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


  7. #67
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    Re: How Long Should We Help the Unemployed?

    Quote Originally Posted by evanescence View Post
    The ultra conservative position doesn't get more cliche than this.

    Look fellas these are nice sentiments, but facts are: jobs are fewer and far between every day. At least jobs that pay a liveable wage. i listen to these people opine about how the average unemployeed Americans are welfare queens taking it easy while they collect a check. The reality is, these people are terrified that they may not be able to feed their families. Ironically, many ultra conservatives may eventually find themselves standing in line for unemployment. How opinionated will they be then?
    One of the reasons people end up in situations where unemployment exceeds the salary they can get is they live beyond their means. Remember, the housing collapse started all this. A bunch of people taking loans on houses that they couldn't afford. I know everyone can agree that when you see people buying cars, tv's, Playstation 3's, etc when the one they have works or they don't need it to begin with, its infuriating. A symptom of this was when this recession started, video game and movie sales didn't really take a hit. Some people were too stupid and too spoiled to realize that they may need to start saving up. The people who are smart with their money did start saving up. Now, the stupid, spoiled people are Occupying places wanting the smart people's saved money. I know this is all me venting and not how it happens all the time. There are legitimate reasons to take unemployment and I don't demonize people for it. But, when I ride around seeing help wanted signs on fast food joints and at Wal-Marts and then see a line out of the door at the unemployment office, there's something wrong with that. My dad, rather than go on unemployment, worked 3 jobs. That's what people should be doing. Does it suck? Yeah, sure it does. One of the jobs my dad had was with Servicemaster cleaning buildings and offices. Servicemaster required he have a three person crew to help him. Guess who that was. My 6 year old brother, my mom, and me at 12 years old. He didn't go on unemployment and it taught me hard work as well. Many people now would rather just go sit in the unemployment office than put the work in to live in their own means.
    “Mr. Speaker, I once again find myself compelled to vote against the annual budget resolution for a very simple reason: it makes government bigger.” ― Ron Paul
    Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of Liberty. – Thomas Jefferson

  8. #68
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    Re: How Long Should We Help the Unemployed?

    Quote Originally Posted by MarineTpartier View Post
    One of the reasons people end up in situations where unemployment exceeds the salary they can get is they live beyond their means. Remember, the housing collapse started all this. A bunch of people taking loans on houses that they couldn't afford. I know everyone can agree that when you see people buying cars, tv's, Playstation 3's, etc when the one they have works or they don't need it to begin with, its infuriating. A symptom of this was when this recession started, video game and movie sales didn't really take a hit. Some people were too stupid and too spoiled to realize that they may need to start saving up. The people who are smart with their money did start saving up. Now, the stupid, spoiled people are Occupying places wanting the smart people's saved money. I know this is all me venting and not how it happens all the time. There are legitimate reasons to take unemployment and I don't demonize people for it. But, when I ride around seeing help wanted signs on fast food joints and at Wal-Marts and then see a line out of the door at the unemployment office, there's something wrong with that. My dad, rather than go on unemployment, worked 3 jobs. That's what people should be doing. Does it suck? Yeah, sure it does. One of the jobs my dad had was with Servicemaster cleaning buildings and offices. Servicemaster required he have a three person crew to help him. Guess who that was. My 6 year old brother, my mom, and me at 12 years old. He didn't go on unemployment and it taught me hard work as well. Many people now would rather just go sit in the unemployment office than put the work in to live in their own means.
    Scripted.

    Define "beyond their means." Even the essentials with no extras cost more than most people can afford. My husband was laid off the year before last, and luckily found employment nearly a year later. He doesn't make as much as he did at his last job. And we've cut all sorts of things. We do not live beyond our means, nor do most unemployeed people.
    “In politics, stupidity is not a handicap.” -Napoleon

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    Re: How Long Should We Help the Unemployed?

    Quote Originally Posted by evanescence View Post
    Scripted.

    Define "beyond their means." Even the essentials with no extras cost more than most people can afford. My husband was laid off the year before last, and luckily found employment nearly a year later. He doesn't make as much as he did at his last job. And we've cut all sorts of things. We do not live beyond our means, nor do most unemployeed people.
    Define "essentials". Its amazing what people in our country define as essential. Like basic cable is "essential". Internet is "essential". A data plan on your iPhone 4 is "essential". See what I'm saying. I did say some people were stupid and kept living beyond their means. You sound like the other side, the person who saved their money and made it through. I also applaud your husband for taking a job that paid less than before. That's the exact thing we need people doing, if they have to. A lot of people would have just gone to the unemployment office forever. Kudos to him.
    “Mr. Speaker, I once again find myself compelled to vote against the annual budget resolution for a very simple reason: it makes government bigger.” ― Ron Paul
    Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of Liberty. – Thomas Jefferson

  10. #70
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    Re: How Long Should We Help the Unemployed?

    Quote Originally Posted by MarineTpartier View Post
    Define "essentials". Its amazing what people in our country define as essential. Like basic cable is "essential". Internet is "essential". A data plan on your iPhone 4 is "essential". See what I'm saying. I did say some people were stupid and kept living beyond their means. You sound like the other side, the person who saved their money and made it through. I also applaud your husband for taking a job that paid less than before. That's the exact thing we need people doing, if they have to. A lot of people would have just gone to the unemployment office forever. Kudos to him.
    To me, essentials are basic things like a safe place to live, a basic/cheap phone plan (for employment purposes), internet (because i do half of my courses online so it's for education), utilities, at least one car, gas, groceries, then there's insurance (which is our third largest expense monthly after the mortgage), health care costs out of pocket, home and car repair, the unexpected repair bill, I'm sure I'm missing something. All of these things add up and it aint cheap. If I worked full time, we'd need to add to that the cost of daycare for two kids under five, one not potty trained. We've cut cable tv, our cell phone plan (we're now on my parent's family plan), and we rarely go out. My point is, many other people are in similar situations. And to be honest, if his job didn't pay more than what unemployment offered, we would have held out. And frankly, I don't blame the people that do hold out. What these people are getting in unemployment is nothing compared to the trillions the pentagon lost in a single year. Corporations are making record profits while the average person is supposed to "cut back." I don't buy it.
    “In politics, stupidity is not a handicap.” -Napoleon

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