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Atheist messages displace CA park nativity scenes

You still have not read the story have you? If you had, you would know that each person who won could claim up to 9 spots(why? I dunno, sounds stupid to me but them's the rules). So there goes the statistical anomaly.
Yes, but here's the thing. Depending on the number of applicants those numbers don't necessarily change the odds. There really isn't a lot of information about the drawing method, total number of of spots taken, etc.

Edit- I read the story in it's entirety.
 
The reverse actually.
Those who think out their belief systems make affirmations about what they believe and their knowledge for it. These are basically equal for whatever they believe, don't believe and their views of knowledge. When you get down to it there is no difference in the basic framework of the agnostic and atheist to the theist. Those who simply say I don't believe there is evidence for a God, without really putting much effort into what they mean by evidence and knowledge and what their view of these tells them about the universe, usually haven't thought things out too well.
 
Yes, but here's the thing. Depending on the number of applicants those numbers don't necessarily change the odds. There really isn't a lot of information about the drawing method, total number of of spots taken, etc.

Edit- I read the story in it's entirety.

Correct, there isn't, but 2 is not really a statistical anomaly unless the number of christians versus atheists was heavily skewed.
 
Those who think out their belief systems make affirmations about what they believe and their knowledge for it. These are basically equal for whatever they believe, don't believe and their views of knowledge. When you get down to it there is no difference in the basic framework of the agnostic and atheist to the theist. Those who simply say I don't believe there is evidence for a God, without really putting much effort into what they mean by evidence and knowledge and what their view of these tells them about the universe, usually haven't thought things out too well.

Oh bull****. Why do you derail every ****ing thread you post in with your offtopic arrogant bull****? I certainly do not care about your bizarre little belief structure nor is it relevant to the topic.
 
Correct, there isn't, but 2 is not really a statistical anomaly unless the number of christians versus atheists was heavily skewed.
I can agree with that.
 
Shall we see what started our little exchange, it was this comment of yours;

We don't say things like that around religious people. It's at least as believable as the rest of the things they believe.

I then made a half-facetious comment back, in a thread about atheists calling Christianity a myth, and then you tried to refute it, failed and then got moody. Personally I find the person who made the above comment and then had a hissy fit at the slightest challenge the most arrogant. But you find this with many atheists of your type. They feel they are oh so much better than the usual, good Christians they come across and they titter to themselves over these believers in Fairy Tales and foolish superstitions. What fools, what dupes, what haters.

They tend to get frustrated whenever they are challenged and cannot answer simple points however.
 
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Yes, but here's the thing. Depending on the number of applicants those numbers don't necessarily change the odds. There really isn't a lot of information about the drawing method, total number of of spots taken, etc.

Edit- I read the story in it's entirety.

13 people bid for the slots. Each person could bid for a max of 9 slots. From the following article one can only assume that they doled out the spots individually on a 1 spot per drawing basis....

To keep it fair and legal, officials in the famously liberal city turned to a lottery to dole out spots in the prime location along Ocean Avenue.

LA Times

According to the OP's article 2 athiests applied for 9 spots each. So...what is the chances of 2 people (out of 13) getting 18 slots on a slot by slot basis?

A few other tidbits that I found interesting in that article....

Indeed, Annie Laurie Gaylor, co-president of the Freedom From Religion Foundation, said December is a busy time for the organization's attorneys, who challenge the use of public spaces for religious messages.

"It's littering — literally, littering — these spaces," Gaylor said of such displays, which she said are a "territorial attempt by Christians to impose their beliefs in this season."

Guess we know where she stands in all this...I wonder if she would like it if we called her stuff garbage?

In Santa Monica, atheist Damon Vix called national organizations seeking help because he felt marginalized by the display, and tradition alone didn't merit saving it. Vix, a 43-year-old prop maker from Burbank, said the display "defines Santa Monica as a Christian city, and I feel very excluded by that."

Last year, he put up a display of his own: signs with quotes from Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin and Abraham Lincoln — quotes that his opponents say are of dubious veracity. (It's worth noting that both sides suspect the Founding Fathers would support them.)

Wait...the guy feels excluded and yet last year he put up a sign by himself? How is it that he is excluded when he was obviously allowed to put up his own sign? And is it really everyone elses fault if he has no belief system or doesn't celebrate Christmas?
 
13 people bid for the slots. Each person could bid for a max of 9 slots. From the following article one can only assume that they doled out the spots individually on a 1 spot per drawing basis....



LA Times

According to the OP's article 2 athiests applied for 9 spots each. So...what is the chances of 2 people (out of 13) getting 18 slots on a slot by slot basis?
Ahh. Okay, those numbers don't line up well. If they did win honestly I want them to pick my powerball numbers.

A few other tidbits that I found interesting in that article....



Guess we know where she stands in all this...I wonder if she would like it if we called her stuff garbage?
She seems pretty smug about the whole thing.


Wait...the guy feels excluded and yet last year he put up a sign by himself? How is it that he is excluded when he was obviously allowed to put up his own sign? And is it really everyone elses fault if he has no belief system or doesn't celebrate Christmas?
My problem is when someone has the idea that inclusion somehow means they get to take cheap shots at people. What a jackass.
 
Ahh. Okay, those numbers don't line up well. If they did win honestly I want them to pick my powerball numbers.

Same here. I use to work in a Casino and my wife still does. Neither one of us ever saw/heard of anyone getting called 9 times in a single drawing (they have weekly drawings...half the time more than 1 drawing in a day). And my wife has worked there for 12 years almost.
 
13 people bid for the slots. Each person could bid for a max of 9 slots. From the following article one can only assume that they doled out the spots individually on a 1 spot per drawing basis....



LA Times

According to the OP's article 2 athiests applied for 9 spots each. So...what is the chances of 2 people (out of 13) getting 18 slots on a slot by slot basis?

A few other tidbits that I found interesting in that article....



Guess we know where she stands in all this...I wonder if she would like it if we called her stuff garbage?



Wait...the guy feels excluded and yet last year he put up a sign by himself? How is it that he is excluded when he was obviously allowed to put up his own sign? And is it really everyone elses fault if he has no belief system or doesn't celebrate Christmas?

For somebody with supposedly thick skin you are making quite an effort to complain about a few posters in a different time zone from you.
 
I thought the dickish part was because they called Santa Claus a myth. It's a crappy thing to do to kids.

You mean Santa's not real??????? You just ruined my day.
 
Being an atheist in the 1950's was enough to get you blacklisted for life. Before that, there were times when it was enough to get you killed. Madeline Murray O'Hare was murdered specifically because she was an atheist activist in 1986.

Ultimately, a murder investigation focused on David Roland Waters, who had worked as a typesetter for American Atheists. Not only did Waters have previous convictions for violent crimes, there were several suspicious burglaries during his tenure, and he pleaded guilty earlier in 1995 to stealing $54,000 from American Atheists.

The police concluded that Waters and his accomplices had kidnapped all three O'Hairs, forced them to withdraw the missing funds, gone on several huge shopping sprees with the O'Hairs' money and credit cards, and then murdered all three people. ...Waters eventually pleaded guilty to reduced charges. ...In January 2001, Waters informed the police that the O'Hairs were buried on a Texas ranch, and he subsequently led them to the bodies.

Madalyn Murray O'Hair - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
If you want to start lecturing me about fallacies after that ****tacular comparison you made earlier, how about you actually learn what it is.

No disrespect intended, but I laughed when I read this. You accused me of lecturing you? :lol:

Argumentum ad populum is suggesting that an individual arguement is true because its popular or holds true for many people then therefore it is universally true. That's not my argument in the least. Now, if you want to talk about "fallacies" go look up strawman. My argument was not that Christianity is "true" because its possible and thus it shouldn't be called mythology.

My argument was that its a tactless and dickish move to make a display like that in a public setting specifically aimed at belittling the view points held by a large population of people. Argumentum ad populum is NOT a fallacy when pointing out that something IS popular and pointing out popularity in and of itself is not a fallacy. My argument relies zero on whether or not Christianity or the Greek Gods are or aren't technically "mythology". Rather, my argument relies on whether or not its true that a majority of people VIEW them as such. A majority of people, especially in academic colleges in the United States, considered Greek Gods to by Mythology thus terming it as such is not some kind of tactless statement nor something that is reasonable to expect someone to think is an "inflamatory remark". On the contrary, stating that JESUS is "mythology" is a view point opposite of what the majority of people in the location of that display views and is something that is reasonable to expect that many people would take as "inflamatory".

Technically, to an atheist, all religions are mythologies. The different deities are hypothetical constructs. If a sociologist from another planet came to earth they would have to agree as they have an objective view. Sure, I recognize that people think that it's inflammatory because it challenges "conventional wisdom". I don't think that all challenges to "conventional wisdom" are inherently "mocking and belittling". If they put up a Flying Spaghetti Monster nativity scene, that would be mocking and belittling. I've seen people here at DP in years past complain about people using the abbreviation "X-mas". I don't see using that abbreviation as mocking and belittling yet I'll bet they do. The reason I said it was an appeal to popularity fallacy is because I think that the religious can be overly sensitive to any and all challenges to their belief systems. I don't deny that they get upset. What I take exception to is that all challenges are mocking and belittling. Calling it a mythology is not mocking and belittling in my opinion. Saying it automatically is because most people think so is the appeal to popularity.

This doesn't even however begin to enter into the absurdity of comparing a class, where lenthy discussion and indepth analysis by individuals CHOOSING to take part in it, to a one line display put up in public.

People would be upset if a college had a "Christian Mythology" class. That is what I was getting at. People are demanding political correctness for the popular belief systems, not on any merits of those belief systems, but simply because they are popular.

It'd be a dick move regardless of what religion they attacked. Would it possibly be funny? Maybe it would. I find tactless dick moves funny sometimes. Doesn't make them any less of a dick move. But if you want to play the "I don't believe" game or the "this thread would be full of" game, had this been a Christian group putting up a display specifically attacking Muslims, or specifically attacking athiests, I think we'd see this thread full of people talking about the bigotry of Christians and the disgusting way they push their views and I don't believe we'd be seeing you having near the same support for the issue of negatively affirming ones beliefs as the direct expense and targetting of another group.

It would have been hilarious if they had a picture of the female orgasm. :lol:

In central Illinois I see lots of literature telling non-believers they need to repent and accept Christ as their Savior. I usually laugh at them. They are usually over the top. I wish I still had the "Million dollar Santa" bill that was cute on the front and on the back went on to call atheists "Satanic". My coworkers and I had a good laugh at that one.
 
So long as there is no historical evidence to indicate that their deities existed and did what their followers claim they did, no.

I don't think hearsay is good enough "evidence". There may have been a man named Jesus who was from Nazareth. That's about it. I don't believe the immaculate conception or any of his miracles are supported by anything other than hearsay.
 
don't you want to spread your beliefs? and how are they oppressing the beliefs of others?

It's rude to try and overpower another's display with arrogance. I believe in spreading my beliefs through my actions, not through offending others and being arrogant. The whole point is that their goal is to displace a nativity scene in the name of their disbelief in God. It's rude, it's legal, but it's only purpose is to offend people.
 
It's rude to try and overpower another's display with arrogance. I believe in spreading my beliefs through my actions, not through offending others and being arrogant. The whole point is that their goal is to displace a nativity scene in the name of their disbelief in God. It's rude, it's legal, but it's only purpose is to offend people.

People looking for something to be offended by will find it every time. How do you know that they weren't trying to educate people about hypothetical constructs?
 
People looking for something to be offended by will find it every time. How do you know that they weren't trying to educate people about hypothetical constructs?

Because their goal was to displace a nativity scene. Their goal was to overshadow someone else's traditional display and interject their own. This was hardly some innocent educational ploy.
 
Because their goal was to displace a nativity scene. Their goal was to overshadow someone else's traditional display and interject their own. This was hardly some innocent educational ploy.

These people can put up a nativity scene anywhere they want - a church, their home, maybe even a public park. They aren't entitled to put it in any official space, nor does winning a lottery preventing them from doing so infringe on their "traditional display." They don't need the government to officially bless their religion in order to legitimize it - if they do, they ought to think about how strong their faith is in the first place. They had "interjected" their own display a long time while other couldn't, until the government decided to settle that problem with a lottery, rather than simply banning all displays.

The bottom line is that they lost a lottery. They should deal with it.
 
Huh? I didn't say that.

Other religions may want to set up some kind of symbol. You have to either let them all do it, or none.

I grew up in the 60's, and these were never issues. Why now?
 
The craziest part of this story is the line that "vandal-proof, cage-like areas surrounded by chain-link fencing" will house the displays.

I can't think of anything more inspiring than the navity scene surrounded by a chain link fence. I know, I know that vandals will damage anything but the chain link fence just makes me say Why even bother putting it there.

Can't these two groups of people find something more beneficial for their communities to do ?
 
For somebody with supposedly thick skin you are making quite an effort to complain about a few posters in a different time zone from you.

And you're making quite an effort to dismiss genuine concerns.
 
I grew up in the 60's, and these were never issues. Why now?

Good question. Not really relevant to an argument though.

You could have asked the same of, say, the civil rights movement.
 
The craziest part of this story is the line that "vandal-proof, cage-like areas surrounded by chain-link fencing" will house the displays.

I can't think of anything more inspiring than the navity scene surrounded by a chain link fence. I know, I know that vandals will damage anything but the chain link fence just makes me say Why even bother putting it there.

Can't these two groups of people find something more beneficial for their communities to do ?

They're underestimating the creativity and determination of vandals bent on destroying other people's property.
 
These people can put up a nativity scene anywhere they want - a church, their home, maybe even a public park. They aren't entitled to put it in any official space, nor does winning a lottery preventing them from doing so infringe on their "traditional display." They don't need the government to officially bless their religion in order to legitimize it - if they do, they ought to think about how strong their faith is in the first place. They had "interjected" their own display a long time while other couldn't, until the government decided to settle that problem with a lottery, rather than simply banning all displays.

The bottom line is that they lost a lottery. They should deal with it.

Bold part: False. Before this year there were always at least 7 other slots left open in which anyone else could display whatever it is that they wanted. They did not try to crowd out anyone else. These athiests purposely set out to crowd out everyone else.
 
Bold part: False. Before this year there were always at least 7 other slots left open in which anyone else could display whatever it is that they wanted. They did not try to crowd out anyone else. These athiests purposely set out to crowd out everyone else.

So they got 14 slots, and everyone else got 7? That's not fair. That's why there was a lottery, apparently. And they lost. They should deal with that and stop whining. They had the dominant spot, with twice the slots as everyone else combined, and now they don't.

Like I said before, this whole affair just reveals how dumb and pointless it is to seek an official "slot" to put up your little display in the first place. Just put it in your front yard or church or a park where there is plenty of room for everyone, instead of a place where it gets into "respecting an establishment of religion" territory.
 
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