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Atheist messages displace CA park nativity scenes

Kal'Stang said:
And they did win 9 slots each didn't they? That equals 18 does it not? And are you denying the fact that combined they only used up 3 of the 18 slots?

BTW, I may believe in God, but I am against organized religion (I've said this before on this forum, a few times I believe). So I could care less if Christians got it or the Athiests or the Muslims. What I do care about and have talked about quite a bit in this thread is the deliberate attempt by one group to push out another group. If the situation here was exactly reversed I would be hollering about it.
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While it's arguable that the situation wasn't exactly reversed here, it is in many parts of the country.
 
Kal'Stang said:
Since when is voiceing a legitimate complaint considered "crying"? Should we start using that arguement everytime someone posts in the Bias in the Media fora? The US Partisan Politics and Political Platforms fora? How about the Abortion fora every time someone "crys" about Roe vs Wade?

Woudl Redress being "crying" if someone came up and started being dicks to em just because of an ideological difference? Or would Redress have a valid complaint? In post 312 I asked Redress directly this...



Redress chose to respond by saying....



Perhaps you can answer it?
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Were the drawings fair? Was there any wrongdoing by the atheists (I mean other than hurting someone's feelings)?
 
Time/Place/manner. The standard for speech is Time/Place/Manner, while this speech is not to be tested but rather it is protected it is the age old question of "just because you can do something should you?". I ask, what is the purpose of choosing this time which is well known as a Christian/Jewish holiday season to take as many lots as possible? Also what is the purpose of pushing people out of their traditionally held place of holiday display to replace it with an message incongruous to the traditional displays? And what is the manner used?

1) The time is offensive because it is a holiday, it's already bad enough to condescend to people who have a different belief but to attack during a holiday is much worse.
2) Atheists can use that public display area any time during the year, the only reason to do that now and there is to be a jackass.
3) There is no excuse to belittle anothers beliefs but especially at this moment.
4) Christians have every right to be upset and even more so because the side doing the attack is trying to dismiss it as the victims being upset that they aren't "entitled" to the displays. This of course is intentionally not understanding the issue to dismiss jackass behavior by a bunch of numb nuts.
 
LaMidRighter said:
Time/Place/manner. The standard for speech is Time/Place/Manner, while this speech is not to be tested but rather it is protected it is the age old question of "just because you can do something should you?". I ask, what is the purpose of choosing this time which is well known as a Christian/Jewish holiday season to take as many lots as possible? Also what is the purpose of pushing people out of their traditionally held place of holiday display to replace it with an message incongruous to the traditional displays? And what is the manner used?

1) The time is offensive because it is a holiday, it's already bad enough to condescend to people who have a different belief but to attack during a holiday is much worse.
2) Atheists can use that public display area any time during the year, the only reason to do that now and there is to be a jackass.
3) There is no excuse to belittle anothers beliefs but especially at this moment.
4) Christians have every right to be upset and even more so because the side doing the attack is trying to dismiss it as the victims being upset that they aren't "entitled" to the displays. This of course is intentionally not understanding the issue to dismiss jackass behavior by a bunch of numb nuts.
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They may be being jackases. But they have a right to. Don't confuse the two.

I like how people whine about others being "offended" when someone mentions Christmas. Well, now's your chance not to be offended when someone else expresses their beliefs.
 
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misterman said:
They may be being jackases. But they have a right to. Don't confuse the two.

I like how people whine about others being "offended" when someone mentions Christmas. Well, now's your chance not to be offended when someone else expresses their beliefs.
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So you condone people attacking others for the sole reason of being douchebags and inflicting offense? Do you think they actually have a point to the behavior? If anything I'll tell you the athiests in that particular group are being childish.
 
Kal'Stang said:
Yep, you definitely ran out of things to say. You sound like a broken record.
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That's what happens when someone is forced to repeat the same facts over and over again. Your problem is with whoever wrote the "rules" to a lottery for display cages on public property.
 
LaMidRighter said:
Couple of questions here for people accusing the christians of being hurt for losing a monopoly.
1) If a group of christians decided to invade an atheist convention with large posters saying "all heathens rot in hell", "you're all unworthy", and then started to treat the attendees as if they are stupid and their beliefs are invalid and ridiculous what would you feel? I want you to remember that this would be targeting the atheist belief during their time, much like what these sub-human pricks did in this case.
2) If said convention meets every year and does the same thing in the same location, but the christians ponied up more money to insure that doesn't get to happen just to "prove a point", what would you feel? I want you to remember, traditions mean things to people, and holidays are off limits to decent human beings. Read into that what you will.
3) If other christians excused the above two and said "well, they're just pissed because we offered our view and they just wanted to keep their monopoly" what would be your response? I want you to remember, I would take up for the people displaced from their time and attack the people targeting them. But if it happens in the future I may decide not to do that since your side decided to condone what is being done here.
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Ridiculous analogy. Conventions are basically invitation-only gatherings on private property. In no way does that equal a come-one, come-all lottery for display space on PUBLIC property.

You're presuming that the holiday season belongs only to Christians. It doesn't.
 
DiAnna said:
Ridiculous analogy. Conventions are basically invitation-only gatherings on private property. In no way does that equal a come-one, come-all lottery for display space on PUBLIC property.

You're presuming that the holiday season belongs only to Christians. It doesn't.
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The holiday season isn't a "christian only" thing, I never said that. Here's the thing, under my analogy let's say that the convention was held at the same place every year, okay, christians don't like the message so they get the money together to crowd out the convention and then put up signs saying "non-believers burn in hell". I would not condone that behavior as a Catholic and frankly that would be completely wrong. The particular issue is that a tradition basically got **** on by a specific group of Athiests, not the belief in general but a bunch of bigoted dirtbags.
Public property or not, these particular Athiests should have left the issue alone, just like believers should let Athiests do their thing in peace. I don't see where I'm wrong here.
 
LaMidRighter said:
The holiday season isn't a "christian only" thing, I never said that. Here's the thing, under my analogy let's say that the convention was held at the same place every year, okay, christians don't like the message so they get the money together to crowd out the convention and then put up signs saying "non-believers burn in hell". I would not condone that behavior as a Catholic and frankly that would be completely wrong.
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Again, you're talking about private property. If Christians decided to have an atheist-bashing convention at the same time and place the atheist usually used, they are free to do so and the atheists can find another site to hold their convention. Both groups have the right to hold conventions to bash each other if they wish. You don't seem able to grasp this fact.


The particular issue is that a tradition basically got **** on by a specific group of Athiests, not the belief in general but a bunch of bigoted dirtbags.
Public property or not, these particular Athiests should have left the issue alone, just like believers should let Athiests do their thing in peace. I don't see where I'm wrong here.
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By "tradition", you mean Christian symbols on PUBLIC property. I repeat, the holidays do not belong to Christians alone. PUBLIC property must be made available to ALL groups wishing to display a holiday message. If they try to deny a group because they don't agree with that group's message, the city can and probably will be sued. "These particular Athiests" put up a message that I personally wouldn't have used. But they wanted to do it, they won the right to do it, and all the "should have left the issue alone" feelings do... not... matter. The said what they wanted to say, they had a right to say it, and "your" traditions are clearly not "their" traditions. A militant atheist would probably tell you that various religions have been ****ting on their traditions for centuries. And frankly, from their perspective, they'd be right.
 
LaMidRighter said:
So you condone people attacking others for the sole reason of being douchebags and inflicting offense? Do you think they actually have a point to the behavior? If anything I'll tell you the athiests in that particular group are being childish.
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I didn't say I condone it. I don't. But yes, they have a point. I think many Christians have acted childish in their insistence that they get special treatment and exclusive access to the public square in the past. Which is probably what motivates the atheists.
 
LaMidRighter said:
The holiday season isn't a "christian only" thing, I never said that. Here's the thing, under my analogy let's say that the convention was held at the same place every year, okay, christians don't like the message so they get the money together to crowd out the convention and then put up signs saying "non-believers burn in hell". I would not condone that behavior as a Catholic and frankly that would be completely wrong.
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Yeah, okay, but that happens pretty much every day and you didn't notice. Do you get upset when those little signs outside churches proclaim that non-believers will burn in hell?
 
DiAnna said:
Again, you're talking about private property. If Christians decided to have an atheist-bashing convention at the same time and place the atheist usually used, they are free to do so and the atheists can find another site to hold their convention. Both groups have the right to hold conventions to bash each other if they wish. You don't seem able to grasp this fact.
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The point I am making is that it isn't right either way, it's a dick move. Public or private property it's using a loophole to slap someone in the face.




By "tradition", you mean Christian symbols on PUBLIC property.
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So? There is a freedom of not from religion.
I repeat, the holidays do not belong to Christians alone.
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Okay? So basically it's okay to mock people because you want in on their holiday. Frankly Chanuka and Christmas are celebrated right now, the Pagans have something as well. It's not just "super happy fun time away from work" for all of us.
PUBLIC property must be made available to ALL groups wishing to display a holiday message. If they try to deny a group because they don't agree with that group's message, the city can and probably will be sued.
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I never said the athiests don't have a claim to public space, rather that what they did here is rude, condescending, and frankly ill timed.
"These particular Athiests" put up a message that I personally wouldn't have used.
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But you are condoning it.
But they wanted to do it, they won the right to do it, and all the "should have left the issue alone" feelings do... not... matter. The said what they wanted to say, they had a right to say it, and "your" traditions are clearly not "their" traditions. A militant atheist would probably tell you that various religions have been ****ting on their traditions for centuries. And frankly, from their perspective, they'd be right.
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And I say they are sub-human garbage and hope they someday learn some manners.
 
misterman said:
Yeah, okay, but that happens pretty much every day and you didn't notice. Do you get upset when those little signs outside churches proclaim that non-believers will burn in hell?
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Yes I do. I think they are out of line which I have stated in this very thread.
 
LaMidRighter said:
The point I am making is that it isn't right either way, it's a dick move. Public or private property it's using a loophole to slap someone in the face.
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It may be a dick move. Christians also commit dick moves sometimes. It's not a "loophole" to express one's religious beliefs, even if they attack another. That's a right.
 
evanescence said:
Were the drawings fair? Was there any wrongdoing by the atheists (I mean other than hurting someone's feelings)?
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I have yet to say that anything that the athiests did was against the rules/laws. How many times must I say this also?

So...are you going to answer the question that Redress refused to answer? Or for that matter, will anyone?
 
misterman said:
They may be being jackases. But they have a right to. Don't confuse the two.

I like how people whine about others being "offended" when someone mentions Christmas. Well, now's your chance not to be offended when someone else expresses their beliefs.
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And those Christians have a right to state a valid complaint about it.
 
DiAnna said:
That's what happens when someone is forced to repeat the same facts over and over again. Your problem is with whoever wrote the "rules" to a lottery for display cages on public property.
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It also happens when someone fails to acknowledge that someone may have a valid complaint, instead calling them whiners and saying that they are just "crying" about "not having a monopoly anymore" (which by the way is not the issue despite what some people in this thread have been saying)
 
DiAnna said:
Ridiculous analogy. Conventions are basically invitation-only gatherings on private property. In no way does that equal a come-one, come-all lottery for display space on PUBLIC property.

You're presuming that the holiday season belongs only to Christians. It doesn't.
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What if that convention is held in a park? A public area?
 
LaMidRighter said:
Couple of questions here for people accusing the christians of being hurt for losing a monopoly.
1) If a group of christians decided to invade an atheist convention with large posters saying "all heathens rot in hell", "you're all unworthy", and then started to treat the attendees as if they are stupid and their beliefs are invalid and ridiculous what would you feel? I want you to remember that this would be targeting the atheist belief during their time, much like what these sub-human pricks did in this case.
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I would laugh and hope there is enough security to escort them out of the building. Then I'd have a sandwich.

2) If said convention meets every year and does the same thing in the same location, but the christians ponied up more money to insure that doesn't get to happen just to "prove a point", what would you feel? I want you to remember, traditions mean things to people, and holidays are off limits to decent human beings. Read into that what you will.
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Atheists would find another place. Like Vegas. Many places there.

3) If other christians excused the above two and said "well, they're just pissed because we offered our view and they just wanted to keep their monopoly" what would be your response? I want you to remember, I would take up for the people displaced from their time and attack the people targeting them. But if it happens in the future I may decide not to do that since your side decided to condone what is being done here.
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You really don't get it do you? The overwhelming majority of atheists don't really about your views or your imaginary friend. We laugh at your ability to get hurt at random posters in nowheresville in California. We trollz ya for ****s and giggles yo.
 
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LaMidRighter said:
Time/Place/manner. The standard for speech is Time/Place/Manner, while this speech is not to be tested but rather it is protected it is the age old question of "just because you can do something should you?". I ask, what is the purpose of choosing this time which is well known as a Christian/Jewish holiday season to take as many lots as possible? Also what is the purpose of pushing people out of their traditionally held place of holiday display to replace it with an message incongruous to the traditional displays? And what is the manner used?

1) The time is offensive because it is a holiday, it's already bad enough to condescend to people who have a different belief but to attack during a holiday is much worse.
2) Atheists can use that public display area any time during the year, the only reason to do that now and there is to be a jackass.
3) There is no excuse to belittle anothers beliefs but especially at this moment.
4) Christians have every right to be upset and even more so because the side doing the attack is trying to dismiss it as the victims being upset that they aren't "entitled" to the displays. This of course is intentionally not understanding the issue to dismiss jackass behavior by a bunch of numb nuts.
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So basically, you believe that society should censor messages that are offensive to certain people because it's a certain time of the year? That doesn't sound like liberty to me.

Kal'Stang said:
I have yet to say that anything that the athiests did was against the rules/laws. How many times must I say this also?

So...are you going to answer the question that Redress refused to answer? Or for that matter, will anyone?
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Your questions have been answered. You just didn't like it.
 
Kal'Stang said:
It also happens when someone fails to acknowledge that someone may have a valid complaint, instead calling them whiners and saying that they are just "crying" about "not having a monopoly anymore" (which by the way is not the issue despite what some people in this thread have been saying)
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I don't want to speak for Redress, but it's possible he doesn't acknowledge that they have a valid complaint because he doesn't believe that they DO have a valid complaint. I don't think their complaint is valid. They lost the lottery, someone they don't like won, and they're angry about it. Tell them to lobby the city for a rules change. They can start with the rule that each winner can claim up to 9 display cages. Complaining about that is valid. Complaining about what others did or did not do with the displays they rightfully claimed is not valid. :shrug:
 
evanescence said:
So basically, you believe that society should censor messages that are offensive to certain people because it's a certain time of the year? That doesn't sound like liberty to me..
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It's the War on the War on Christmas!
 
DiAnna said:
By "tradition", you mean Christian symbols on PUBLIC property. I repeat, the holidays do not belong to Christians alone. PUBLIC property must be made available to ALL groups wishing to display a holiday message. If they try to deny a group because they don't agree with that group's message, the city can and probably will be sued. "These particular Athiests" put up a message that I personally wouldn't have used. But they wanted to do it, they won the right to do it, and all the "should have left the issue alone" feelings do... not... matter. The said what they wanted to say, they had a right to say it, and "your" traditions are clearly not "their" traditions. A militant atheist would probably tell you that various religions have been ****ting on their traditions for centuries. And frankly, from their perspective, they'd be right.
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I don't quite agree with this. Public space should be used for anyone irregardless of a holiday.

As for the rest, two wrongs do not make a right. Pretty much everyone in this thread agrees that what the athiests did was dickish, but instead of ignoring it or saying that they "have a right to do it" (which no one disputes) we should condemn it. We have that right also.
 
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