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Thread: 81% Celebrate Christmas As A Religious Holiday

  1. #81
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    Re: 81% Celebrate Christmas As A Religious Holiday

    Quote Originally Posted by lpast View Post
    Would you like to borrow my hearing aids either way Merry Christmas has gained alot of favor back with americans and I like that.
    I still don't care. People are free to say whatever they want.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

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    Re: 81% Celebrate Christmas As A Religious Holiday

    Quote Originally Posted by lpast View Post
    What rights are we talking about for the 19%...just what rights are infringed upon BY the other 81% liking christmas
    i think that nobody would know about "the (ghost) war on christmas" except for faux news. seriously, it's up to the individual towns and cities and municipal properties what they have on their lawns, and it's up to everyone else to say whatever they feel is appropriate. people should be offended by neither "merry christmas" nor "happy holidays", "happy hanukkah", or whatever. dumb and dumber, this entire subject. if you are religious, celebrate christmas your way, and don't worry about what others do. do you REALLY think jesus gives a **** about a manger in front of a courthouse? if you are not religious, fine, don't complain about people saying "merry christmas"......christmas is only a day. they are wishing you a merry DAY.

    Originally Posted by johnny_rebson:

    These are the same liberals who forgot how Iraq attacked us on 9/11.


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    Re: 81% Celebrate Christmas As A Religious Holiday

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    You really need to calm down and not get over excited. I'm really not sure what your point is. I admit I stereotyped the ACLU position, but I don't think most will disagree with me, but whatever.
    What you did was get their position completely wrong. We call that lying.

    You didn't answer the most important point, why would Fisher Ames give the motion if he didn't agree with it? You have also not shown that Madison was responsible for the outcome. It seems his input was repeatedly and deliberately revised(and I was well aware the amendment was revised and Ames only came up with the final statement);

    The First Amendment to the Constitution of the United States
    Your source actually explains it pretty well. The framework of what was to be in the amendment was decided on already. The only question was how it would be worded. If Ames actually opposed the concept of no state religion, then he may have done his part because that was the compromise reached. I know, compromise, what a radical idea.

    You also have far from proved that most of those at the convention were even as 'radically' secularist as Madison and most importantly that even he, let alone them, wanted to ban things like municipal Christmas trees or prayers in schools or had anything like the modern viewpoint of secularists who want absolute separation of church and state, done to Christmas trees and Ten Commandment statues. Also that amendment was meant only for the federal government.
    And now you are building straw men. I never claimed most where "racially secularist". Nice try though. Note also: christmas trees are not banned, nor is prayer in school. Why is honesty so hard for you? And lastly note that I brought up the federal vs state thing in my first reply to you, including(as usual) more details than you.

    The judicial activist and constitutional interpretation argument stands. My argument is of course only meaningful to those who care what the writers and ratifiers(the latter are even more important than the writers) meant and respect it, and generally want to enforce it.
    No, actually it does not stand for a couple reasons. You are basing your opinion on what the writers and ratifiers wanted based on limited information. You are also failing to notice what they actually put into law. We have a very clear legal system that those writers and ratifiers put into place. If you do not like it, then you best go back and cry to them. The whole holier than thou bull**** is just that, bull****. I can play that exact same game: if you do not like the separation of church and state, you hate one of the key premises and protections in the constitution and piss on the memory of Jefferson.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

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  4. #84
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    Re: 81% Celebrate Christmas As A Religious Holiday

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    What you did was get their position completely wrong. We call that lying.
    Whatever.


    Your source actually explains it pretty well. The framework of what was to be in the amendment was decided on already. The only question was how it would be worded. If Ames actually opposed the concept of no state religion, then he may have done his part because that was the compromise reached. I know, compromise, what a radical idea.
    Actually it shows great revision. And my collected works of Ames show that this was a heated debate, specifically because they didn't want to surrender so much ground to Madison's more secular attitude.

    And now you are building straw men. I never claimed most where "racially secularist". Nice try though. Note also: christmas trees are not banned, nor is prayer in school. Why is honesty so hard for you? And lastly note that I brought up the federal vs state thing in my first reply to you, including(as usual) more details than you.
    This, though, is what I thought our debate was above; whether the Founders meant the sort of radical secularism and separation of Church and State I associated with the ACLU.


    No, actually it does not stand for a couple reasons. You are basing your opinion on what the writers and ratifiers wanted based on limited information. You are also failing to notice what they actually put into law. We have a very clear legal system that those writers and ratifiers put into place. If you do not like it, then you best go back and cry to them. The whole holier than thou bull**** is just that, bull****. I can play that exact same game: if you do not like the separation of church and state, you hate one of the key premises and protections in the constitution and piss on the memory of Jefferson.
    This is belied by the rancour over that legal system and how the constitution should be used and interpreted, and the role of the judiciary. Jefferson was not at the convention, and was more radical than most of the Founding Fathers on this topic, and several others.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

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    Re: 81% Celebrate Christmas As A Religious Holiday

    Quote Originally Posted by lpast View Post
    What rights are we talking about for the 19%...just what rights are infringed upon BY the other 81% liking christmas
    That isn't the problem. The problem is when a vocal minority of this 81% believe they have a God-given right to not let the 19% have the same public celebrations of their beliefs as the rest do. Or to not hound those who do not want to participate in these ceremonies.
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    Re: 81% Celebrate Christmas As A Religious Holiday

    Quote Originally Posted by Phys251 View Post
    That isn't the problem. The problem is when a vocal minority of this 81% believe they have a God-given right to not let the 19% have the same public celebrations of their beliefs as the rest do. Or to not hound those who do not want to participate in these ceremonies.
    How is saying Merry Christmas or having a Christmas Tree up on public land stopping anyone from having thier own public celebrations of thier own beliefs? Or how is it hounding them?
    I have an answer for everything...you may not like the answer or it may not satisfy your curiosity..but it will still be an answer. ~ Kal'Stang

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    Re: 81% Celebrate Christmas As A Religious Holiday

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    How is saying Merry Christmas or having a Christmas Tree up on public land stopping anyone from having thier own public celebrations of thier own beliefs? Or how is it hounding them?
    That is why only a very tiny few people on the very fringe are going after those things. No serious group is. I think Jewish groups have more issue with both those than any liberal/atheist groups, and even then it is very very few people.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

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    Re: 81% Celebrate Christmas As A Religious Holiday

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    81% of people claim to celebrate Christmas as a religious holiday, is what it should read as. Do 81% of the people go to Church on Christmas? Doubtful. People love to pretend they're more devout than they are.

    That being said, why the **** do I care? I celebrate Christmas as an American holiday, not in any religious context. But I go to church that day...which probably puts me ahead of some of that 81%.
    Let us consider the many myths of Christmas:

    First, Christmas is not the anniversary of the birth of Christ. It is merely an arbitrary celebration of his birth. No one knows exactly when Christ was born, but most scholars believe it was in the spring, perhaps as late as May. The Catholic Church hi-jacked a pagan celebration of the winter solstice and declared it the birth of Christ. Frankly, there is a very good case for such pagans to rightfully tell us all to get the Christ out. Second, true Christians (which are a very small subset of those that think of themselves as Christians) should take offense at 1) the idea that the birth of Christ should be celebrated on a single day; 2) that such a day is so overrun with materialism, as this is completely against anything Christ taught (he spoke of worrying about your treasures in heaven and renouncing your treasures on earth), and 3) the birth of Christ being more remarkable than his death and resurrection.

    I consider myself a strong Christian. As my faith has grown, my thinking of Christmas as some type of high holy day has been greatly diminished. I celebrate the birth, but far more importantly the death and resurrection of Christ every single day, with no day any more significant than the other. The idea of Christmas, as it has become in 21st Century America, really having much to do with Christ, I am increasingly finding almost offensive.

    That all said, we do use Christmas, in our family, to tell the biblical story of the birth of Christ. But, I think of it much more as a family day, but enjoy the tradition. To me, it is an excuse (or powerful rallying point) to teach the word, drawing sharp contrast to Christ's intention for us and how we treat the day.
    Last edited by upsideguy; 12-13-11 at 01:29 AM.

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    Re: 81% Celebrate Christmas As A Religious Holiday

    The exact date of Christ's birth is not relevant to the meaning of the current celebration of Christmas. Also those pagans no longer exist. The people who dress up like Druids are not their successors.

    I do agree about the commercial aspect of Christmas, certainly. Christians, while celebrating Christmas, should minimise that aspect.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

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    Re: 81% Celebrate Christmas As A Religious Holiday

    Quote Originally Posted by Phys251 View Post
    That isn't the problem. The problem is when a vocal minority of this 81% believe they have a God-given right to not let the 19% have the same public celebrations of their beliefs as the rest do. Or to not hound those who do not want to participate in these ceremonies.
    do you have evidence of these people "not letting" the 19% have the same public celebrations of their beliefs?.. or hounding those whom don't want to participate?

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