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Thread: 81% Celebrate Christmas As A Religious Holiday

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    Re: 81% Celebrate Christmas As A Religious Holiday

    The war on Christmas stuff is tedious. The problem is it is reacting to even more tedious nonsense in an inevitable, and probably necessary way.
    Note the very important word "public". Public funds going to finance a religious display is a clear violation of the first amendment establishment clause.
    Depends on how you define that clause. It is clear that the ACLU position, that even the most inexpensive and small shows of acknowledgement of Christianity, like municipal Christmas trees or signs, are prohibited by this clause, is not what those who wrote or ratified it thought it meant. Fisher Ames, was the one who wrote it and he was one of the most conservative of the Founding Fathers. By 1805 he was predicting that democratic liberty would destroy the US as any worthwhile, moral nation. It is unlikely he agreed with the ACLU's position, as his writings on the subject show.
    Last edited by Wessexman; 12-12-11 at 08:00 AM.
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    Re: 81% Celebrate Christmas As A Religious Holiday

    Going after Christmas tree displays and nativity scenes has definitely slowed down...public opinion has gone UP in big numbers supporting christmas and Merry Christmas etc...as public opinion changed the constant yearly opposition has decreased
    Its an issue that should never have been an issue in the first place...no one is using christmas to badger anyone else..
    Christmas was around before they were all born...

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    Re: 81% Celebrate Christmas As A Religious Holiday

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    The war on Christmas stuff is tedious. The problem is it is reacting to even more tedious nonsense in an inevitable, and probably necessary way.
    Depends on how you define that clause. It is clear that the ACLU position, that even the most inexpensive and small shows of acknowledgement of Christianity, like municipal Christmas trees or signs, are prohibited by this clause, is not what those who wrote or ratified it thought it meant. Fisher Ames, was the one who wrote it and he was one of the most conservative of the Founding Fathers. By 1805 he was predicting that democratic liberty would destroy the US as any worthwhile, moral nation. It is unlikely he agreed with the ACLU's position, as his writings on the subject show.
    Going to help you out here. Let me quote the first amendment for you:

    Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances
    Now, in this country, we have a court system, which has routinely and correctly ruled that this means the government cannot fund religion. There are exceptions, but they are relatively rare. In 1947, the establishment clause(that is what we call the first part of the first amendment in this country) was extended to include the states(appropriately). The phrase "separation of church and state" came from the writings of Thomas Jefferson. He is one of the founding fathers of our country. Further, according to I. Brandt's biography of Madison, Madison wrote the first amendment(it seems most likely), with Ames simply making the motion(this is what we call sourcing our claims).

    And even further, your portrayal of the ACLU position is inaccurate. Just to give a couple examples, the ACLU has no litigation about US currency not military chaplains(again with the source thing...they mean you actually put effort into posting instead of making **** up).
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    Re: 81% Celebrate Christmas As A Religious Holiday

    Quote Originally Posted by lpast View Post
    Going after Christmas tree displays and nativity scenes has definitely slowed down...public opinion has gone UP in big numbers supporting christmas and Merry Christmas etc...as public opinion changed the constant yearly opposition has decreased
    Its an issue that should never have been an issue in the first place...no one is using christmas to badger anyone else..
    Christmas was around before they were all born...
    It's a made up issue that has almost zero bearing on the real world. Only isolated nutcases have ever complained about christmas trees, nativity scenes are fine if some one other than the government pays for them and other religions get equal rights. The whole issue is a bunch of right wing fanatics either being paranoid or taking advantage of gullible people, or both.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

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    Re: 81% Celebrate Christmas As A Religious Holiday

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    Going to help you out here. Let me quote the first amendment for you:



    Now, in this country, we have a court system, which has routinely and correctly ruled that this means the government cannot fund religion. There are exceptions, but they are relatively rare. In 1947, the establishment clause(that is what we call the first part of the first amendment in this country) was extended to include the states(appropriately). The phrase "separation of church and state" came from the writings of Thomas Jefferson. He is one of the founding fathers of our country. Further, according to I. Brandt's biography of Madison, Madison wrote the first amendment(it seems most likely), with Ames simply making the motion(this is what we call sourcing our claims).

    And even further, your portrayal of the ACLU position is inaccurate. Just to give a couple examples, the ACLU has no litigation about US currency not military chaplains(again with the source thing...they mean you actually put effort into posting instead of making **** up).
    I had no idea we were to treat forum posts like journal articles.....

    The Collected works of Fisher Ames I own makes somewhat different claims for his hand in writing that clause. If he made the motion though, it is likely he sympathised strongly with it, however much of a hand he had in writing it. A quick google search provided me with several sources, of whatever reliability, which say pretty much what my copy of the collected works of Ames does.

    Original Intent and the 1st Amendment
    Consider Mr. Fisher Ames of Massachusetts, who provided the wording for the First Amendment passed by the House of Representatives. He would certainly know the intent of that amendment, yet he never used the phrase "separation of church and state." Rather, he called for the Bible always to remain the primary textbook in America's classroom: "Why... should not the Bible regain the place it once held as a school book? Its morals are pure, its examples captivating and noble. The reverence for the sacred book that is thus early impressed lasts long; and, probably, if not impressed in infancy, never takes firm hold of the mind."
    The note from your source can easily be interpreted to fit the view given here, though it interestingly seems to skirt the point either way(which may suggest embarrassment and wishing to avoid the issue), and in the numerous other sources a google search brings up.

    In America you also have bitter rancour over judicial activism and the meaning and use of the constitution. Now of course those who simply accept contemporary court rulings as deciding the meaning of the constitution will not care about my point. However those who are interested in the strict and original meaning and interpretation of the constitution will no doubt feel differently.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

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    Re: 81% Celebrate Christmas As A Religious Holiday

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    I had no idea we were to treat forum posts like journal articles.....

    The Collected works of Fisher Ames I own makes somewhat different claims for his hand in writing that clause. If he made the motion though, it is likely he sympathised strongly with it, however much of a hand he had in writing it. A quick google search provided me with several sources, of whatever reliability, which say pretty much what my copy of the collected works of Ames does.

    Original Intent and the 1st Amendment

    The note from your source can easily be interpreted to fit the view given here, though it interestingly seems to skirt the point either way(which may suggest embarrassment and wishing to avoid the issue), and in the numerous other sources a google search brings up.

    In America you also have bitter rancour over judicial activism and the meaning and use of the constitution. Now of course those who simply accept contemporary court rulings as deciding the meaning of the constitution will not care about my point. However those who are interested in the strict and original meaning and interpretation of the constitution will no doubt feel differently.
    I do so love how you focus on minutiae, desperately hoping no one notices all the big issue facts you got corrected on. You claim that one guy wrote the first amendment(possible but disputed), and then assume that his word is somehow law and the intent of the first amendment, despite the fact that one of the major architects of the first amendment created the whole "separation of church and state" thing you may have heard of, and who insisted on wording that included protection "of and from religion". He was one of the key, main founding fathers. You guys might have even heard of him over there. And yet you ignore him in favor of some guy who says what you want to believe.

    And then you go into some retarded "judicial activist" thing, despite the fact that Jefferson was around from before we even had a judicial system, and that the first amendment is not that complicated. Furthermore, you might note that when SCOTUS rules, that then is the law of the land until such time as it overrules itself or an amendment is made. You may not like what SCOTUS rules(and I sometimes do not), but you cannot deny that that is the system in place over here in our country, which makes your judicial activism whine worthless.

    And of course you totally ignored having your ACLU argument blown up. Funny that.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

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    Re: 81% Celebrate Christmas As A Religious Holiday

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    Look, let's settle this now.

    Of course there are people who are anti-religion or whatever. There are always extremists on every side.

    There is no widespread anti-Christmas movement though. And more important - attempts to preserve religious freedom for all, such as those by the ACLU, are NOT anti-
    Christmas. THAT is the issue here that's BS.
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    Re: 81% Celebrate Christmas As A Religious Holiday

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    I do so love how you focus on minutiae, desperately hoping no one notices all the big issue facts you got corrected on. You claim that one guy wrote the first amendment(possible but disputed), and then assume that his word is somehow law and the intent of the first amendment, despite the fact that one of the major architects of the first amendment created the whole "separation of church and state" thing you may have heard of, and who insisted on wording that included protection "of and from religion". He was one of the key, main founding fathers. You guys might have even heard of him over there. And yet you ignore him in favor of some guy who says what you want to believe.

    And then you go into some retarded "judicial activist" thing, despite the fact that Jefferson was around from before we even had a judicial system, and that the first amendment is not that complicated. Furthermore, you might note that when SCOTUS rules, that then is the law of the land until such time as it overrules itself or an amendment is made. You may not like what SCOTUS rules(and I sometimes do not), but you cannot deny that that is the system in place over here in our country, which makes your judicial activism whine worthless.

    And of course you totally ignored having your ACLU argument blown up. Funny that.
    You really need to calm down and not get over excited. I'm really not sure what your point is. I admit I stereotyped the ACLU position, but I don't think most will disagree with me, but whatever.

    You didn't answer the most important point, why would Fisher Ames give the motion if he didn't agree with it? You have also not shown that Madison was responsible for the outcome. It seems his input was repeatedly and deliberately revised(and I was well aware the amendment was revised and Ames only came up with the final statement);

    The First Amendment to the Constitution of the United States

    You also have far from proved that most of those at the convention were even as 'radically' secularist as Madison and most importantly that even he, let alone them, wanted to ban things like municipal Christmas trees or prayers in schools or had anything like the modern viewpoint of secularists who want absolute separation of church and state, done to Christmas trees and Ten Commandment statues. Also that amendment was meant only for the federal government.

    The judicial activist and constitutional interpretation argument stands. My argument is of course only meaningful to those who care what the writers and ratifiers(the latter are even more important than the writers) meant and respect it, and generally want to enforce it.
    Last edited by Wessexman; 12-12-11 at 09:04 AM.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

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    Re: 81% Celebrate Christmas As A Religious Holiday

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    It's a made up issue that has almost zero bearing on the real world. Only isolated nutcases have ever complained about christmas trees, nativity scenes are fine if some one other than the government pays for them and other religions get equal rights. The whole issue is a bunch of right wing fanatics either being paranoid or taking advantage of gullible people, or both.
    I disagree totally...there have been constant complaints about even just about the word Christmas Holiday on school calendars...Im not going and list dozens of articles from google...but to say its a made up right wing thing is ridiculous...I will agree some exagerate it...but its real non the less

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    Re: 81% Celebrate Christmas As A Religious Holiday

    Quote Originally Posted by lpast View Post
    I disagree totally...there have been constant complaints about even just about the word Christmas Holiday on school calendars...Im not going and list dozens of articles from google...but to say its a made up right wing thing is ridiculous...I will agree some exagerate it...but its real non the less
    I looked on Google myself, and there are no such complaints.

    There, now you have to back up your own argument anyway.

    And hey, "dozens" doesn't constitute a "war" anyway. Not that it matters. So some people have extreme ideas. So what? What's that prove?
    "Yes I read the 9th [amendment]. It doesn't say **** about abortion." -Jamesrage

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