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Thread: Woman Who Attacked ObamaCare Apologizes After Breast Cancer Diagnosis

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    Quote Originally Posted by iliveonramen View Post
    Our cost as a percentage of GDP and compared to other countries that fund the costs via government is higher. How exactly is government fueling the costs when other governments fund comparable healthcare at a lower cost?
    It's never comparable. There is always a host of reasons for the differences between countries. Japan caps the reimbursement for all procedures, for example. Then again their country is absolutely ****ed economically right now. The Scandinavian countries tax at double the rates we do and have a healthier and more stable (read: low immigration) population. On and on, millions of factors.

    To control cost anywhere have to ration, somehow, to make it affordable, and that's easy or difficult depending on a slew of things.

    Do our costs of medical services/procedures have to come down? No question. And how do you do that? Well there are a few ways, none of which involve expanding access and entitlement. We can talk about how to suppress cost, but people won't accept it because it means losing benefits.

    Anyway, there is not nearly enough time to fix costs BEFORE reneging on unreasonable promises. The unreasonable promises have to be shut off NOW. Then we focus on cost containment and try to get the voters on board with the painful truth of the matter.
    Last edited by Neomalthusian; 12-08-11 at 03:19 PM.

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    Re: Woman Who Attacked ObamaCare Apologizes After Breast Cancer Diagnosis

    Well there are a few ways, none of which involve expanding access and entitlement. We can talk about how to suppress cost, but people won't accept it because it means losing benefits.
    I agree...there has to be talk of some type of rationing. To me rationing that makes sense is someone that's 90 not getting say a heart transplant instead of a 25 year old not getting medical care because they can't afford it. End of life care is by far the most expensive part of our medical system...and makes the least amount of sense.

    Beyond that...I think there are a couple of truths regarding medical care. Everybody will need it at some point of their life. We're also not a country that beleives in letting someone die when it's fixable. Therefore everybody should pay some sort of premium.

    As of now.....I'm pretty sure a lot of young people or those that are poor use America's version of catastrohpic insurance...the ER. Why not force everybody to pay medical insurance. Why not make that insurance via the American government so that no matter if you switch jobs or switch states you have the same employer, you're paying into the same pool, so that if you pay your whole life and lose your job at 50 you're not screwed.
    “Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone.” John Maynard Keynes

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    Re: Woman Who Attacked ObamaCare Apologizes After Breast Cancer Diagnosis

    Quote Originally Posted by misterman View Post
    Sounds like high-risk pools.

    What is a Risk Pool
    I'm not sure of your point here, but there are similarities. Please elaborate?


    Quote Originally Posted by misterman View Post
    Sounds like the "alliances" for multiple employers to buy health coverage for their employees at lower rates under Bill Clinton's health care plan of 1993.
    Well, employers banding together bothers me on an anti-trust level. I guess I should clarify that I meant it being offered to account holders at a credit union, not employees. I also was only giving one example, but there are other large groups. Town Halls, charities, etc that could probably find a way to buy as a group rather than just employers offering it to employees.
    Omniscience just sucks without omnipotence!

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    Re: Woman Who Attacked ObamaCare Apologizes After Breast Cancer Diagnosis

    Quote Originally Posted by iliveonramen View Post
    I agree...there has to be talk of some type of rationing. To me rationing that makes sense is someone that's 90 not getting say a heart transplant instead of a 25 year old not getting medical care because they can't afford it.
    Just so you know the general cut off age for a heart transplant is 65. They do go more by biological age though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by iliveonramen View Post
    Beyond that...I think there are a couple of truths regarding medical care. Everybody will need it at some point of their life. We're also not a country that beleives in letting someone die when it's fixable.
    That's not a nation-wide belief. You can't speak for everyone and thus force a decision on everyone.

    As of now.....I'm pretty sure a lot of young people or those that are poor use America's version of catastrohpic insurance...the ER. Why not force everybody to pay medical insurance.
    Actual insurance is a decision to guard against risk. Mandatory insurance is not insurance at all, it's a welfare tax. What you're really advocating is to replace insurance with welfare taxes. You just don't realize it.

    It's also not really insurance if we dole out the benefits of insurance to non-paying individuals. That's universal health care de facto. The Hippocratic Oath undermines the notion of health insurance and eventually turns it into a nationalized welfare benefit. That's the course we're on, full speed ahead.

    Why not make that insurance via the American government so that no matter if you switch jobs or switch states you have the same employer, you're paying into the same pool, so that if you pay your whole life and lose your job at 50 you're not screwed.
    Youre trying to eliminate downsides of life and life's decisions. You're always screwed if you don't or can't plan for future contingencies. It's a natural law of the universe.
    Last edited by Neomalthusian; 12-08-11 at 03:27 PM.

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    Re: Woman Who Attacked ObamaCare Apologizes After Breast Cancer Diagnosis

    Quote Originally Posted by winston53660 View Post
    Just so you know the general cut off age for a heart transplant is 65. They do go more by biological age though.
    I thought that was the case. I used it as an example, I should of used "insert expensive medical procedure A".
    “Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone.” John Maynard Keynes

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    Re: Woman Who Attacked ObamaCare Apologizes After Breast Cancer Diagnosis

    Quote Originally Posted by iliveonramen View Post
    I thought that was the case. I used it as an example, I should of used "insert expensive medical procedure A".
    I go to a heart transplant center so...well... I just had to chime in.

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    Re: Woman Who Attacked ObamaCare Apologizes After Breast Cancer Diagnosis

    That's not a nation-wide belief. You can't speak for everyone and thus force a decision on everyone
    Everybody will need medical care at some part of their life. As for the not letting people die, yeah, conservatives have seem to become a bloodthirsty bunch (but don't touch their Medicare!) but I'm pretty sure polling would reveal a pretty large majority have has that belief.

    Actual insurance is a decision to guard against risk. Mandatory insurance is not insurance at all, it's a welfare tax.
    It's not a welfare tax. It's the recognition that everyone will one day need care therefore you pay in your whole life for that eventuality. Not everyone gets into a car accident. Not everyone has a home that burns downs or floods. You're paying to guard against that risk. There's no "risk" that you'll need medical care...it's an eventuality of the aging process.

    Youre trying to eliminate downsides of life and life's decisions. You're always screwed if you don't or can't plan for future contingencies. It's a natural law of the universe.
    Being a Free Marketeer like yourself it seems like labor moving around easily should be a goal of yours.

    How can labor change (the process of changing professions or locations) according to future demands of the economy if they are worried about their or their families health? Why do we put the burden on business? Why are we creating more pitfalls for the potential entreprenuer (cost of healtcare for their employees plus themsleves) besides just the risk of his business failing?

    Healthcare costs is a drain and the uncertainity of if you'll be taken care of are in my opinion...bad for the economy and immoral.
    “Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone.” John Maynard Keynes

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    Re: Woman Who Attacked ObamaCare Apologizes After Breast Cancer Diagnosis

    [QUOTE=iliveonramen;1060011928]

    It's not a welfare tax. It's the recognition that everyone will one day need care therefore you pay in your whole life for that eventuality. Not everyone gets into a car accident. Not everyone has a home that burns downs or floods. You're paying to guard against that risk. There's no "risk" that you'll need medical care...it's an eventuality of the aging process.

    If it is not a welfare tax, then it must be insurance. If it is insurance, then everybody must participate in the funding of the risk pool. Therefore everybody will chip in their bucks. The whole notion of UHC is based on the idea that some cannot afford health care, and therefore the government should provide, regardless of ability to pay. That is a welfare tax.

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    Re: Woman Who Attacked ObamaCare Apologizes After Breast Cancer Diagnosis

    Quote Originally Posted by iliveonramen View Post
    I agree...I'm not a big fan of Obamacare. It's basically a handout to private insurers. At the same time....it supposedly was the only thing that would get support from Conservatives being a former Conservative plan. He should of just said "fu** ya'll we're going public option".
    He didn't need the vote from the GOP to have went that way. I'm not sure why this area of arguement continues. The Dems had the votes to do whatever they wanted, they couldn't agree with what they wanted.

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