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Thread: Just Plain Wrong

  1. #821
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    Re: Just Plain Wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    I'm not using the term normal in any specific way, since the word normal is nothing but a relative term, based on one's own experience, unless one is using it in some form of statistical analysis.
    Normal can mean 'norm', like nature or something like idea, or it can mean average or usual. You are just asserting norms are relative.

    This is the fallacy. Normal is not timeless. This is why context matters, and the pre-modern context of what normal is, is irrelevant.
    You are not diagnosing a logical fallacy here, you are just asserting they are wrong and you are right. If that gives you your jollies then more power to you.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

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    Re: Just Plain Wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    Normal can mean 'norm', like nature or something like idea, or it can mean average or usual. You are just asserting norms are relative.
    I think that's what I've been saying. Of course norms are relative.

    You are not diagnosing a logical fallacy here, you are just asserting they are wrong and you are right. If that gives you your jollies then more power to you.
    I've clearly demonstrated how I am right. Tucker has also demonstrated the accuracy of my position. You cannot demonstrate that norms are timeless. My position is that norms are contextual and relative. If you think differently, that's fine, but you will be hard pressed to prove your position.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  3. #823
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    Re: Just Plain Wrong

    Meh, I was simply pointing out that your view on norms being relative is itself a very parochial and modern assumption and that its philosophical underpinnings have not been generally shared, indeed would have often looked on them as nonsensical. This is not a formal refutation of course, just an interesting observation and perhaps a pause for thought. Such a debate will not be settled on a message board though.
    Last edited by Wessexman; 12-23-11 at 05:46 AM.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

  4. #824
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    Re: Just Plain Wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    Meh, I was simply pointing out that your view on norms being relative is itself a very parochial and modern assumption and that its philosophical underpinnings have not been generally shared, indeed would have often looked on them as nonsensical. This is not a formal refutation of course, just an interesting observation and perhaps a pause for thought. Such a debate will not be settled on a message board though.
    There are lots of beliefs that folks held in the past that we now know are incorrect. Besides, philosophy in and of itself is pretty relative.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  5. #825
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    Re: Just Plain Wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    There are lots of beliefs that folks held in the past that we now know are incorrect.
    In this case it appears that what you think is completely obvious few before Hobbes, Locke and Hume had any inkling of. All this is chronological snobbery; the strange idea that what has been argued in the past must have refuted and what is believed now must be right. That Pre-Cartesian thought, except a few Greco-Romans, badly interpreted, is largely ignored you do not take into account. This is quite an ironic position for someone so intent on disparaging those who try and appeal to normalcy.
    Last edited by Wessexman; 12-23-11 at 06:02 AM.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

  6. #826
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    Re: Just Plain Wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    In this case it appears that what you think is completely obvious no one before Hobbes, Locke and Hume had any inkling of. All this is chronological snobbery; the strange idea that what has been argued in the past must have refuted and what is believed now must be right. That Pre-Descartesian thought, except a few Greco-Romans, badly interpreted, is largely ignored you do not take into account. This is quite an ironic position for someone so intent on disparaging those who try and appeal to normalcy.
    You confuse a philosophical belief with the application of that belief. I am quite certain that folks from very early times had a philosophy of what constitutes normal. Their application of such would be contextual on their time period. The belief system might continue to apply, but the application in THEIR time period no longer does. You constantly confuse philosophy with application, Wessexman, and often digress into psuedo-intellectual rubbish when this is pointed out. Talk philosophy all you want. I am discussing application. How folks in pre-modern Western society applied the concept of normal, no longer applies in most cases.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  7. #827
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    Re: Just Plain Wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    You confuse a philosophical belief with the application of that belief. I am quite certain that folks from very early times had a philosophy of what constitutes normal. Their application of such would be contextual on their time period. The belief system might continue to apply, but the application in THEIR time period no longer does. You constantly confuse philosophy with application, Wessexman, and often digress into psuedo-intellectual rubbish when this is pointed out. Talk philosophy all you want. I am discussing application. How folks in pre-modern Western society applied the concept of normal, no longer applies in most cases.
    Sorry, but, as one 'pseudo-intellectual' to another, I can't heads nor tails of this.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

  8. #828
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    Re: Just Plain Wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    Sorry, but, as one 'pseudo-intellectual' to another, I can't heads nor tails of this.
    OK, let's start here. What do you think the pre-modern Western concept of normal was?
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  9. #829
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    Re: Just Plain Wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    OK, let's start here. What do you think the pre-modern Western concept of normal was?
    I can just about see what you are saying. You're saying that they have to apply the beliefs according to the context of their time. I'm just not sure how this necessarily makes it completely relative. Indeed, as it begs the question of what are the different contexts and applications, what is one unit or measurement or parameter of the 'contexts' is, it doesn't make much sense to me as an argument. If they are applying a belief there must be something not relative involved. You might as well just say 'it is all relative' and ignore their shared beliefs if you want to make the point you seem to be trying to make.
    Last edited by Wessexman; 12-23-11 at 06:17 AM.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

  10. #830
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    Re: Just Plain Wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    I can just about see what you are saying. You're saying that they have to apply the beliefs according to the context of their time. I'm just not sure how this necessarily makes it completely relative. Indeed, as it begs the question of what are the different contexts and applications, what is one unit or measurement of the 'contexts', it doesn't make much sense to me as an argument. If they are applying a belief there must be something not relative involved. You might as well just say 'it is all relative' and ignore their shared beliefs if you want to make the point you seem to be trying to make.
    If they apply the beliefs in accordance with their time, this application reflects not only the belief but the context of their time period and their societal beliefs. Now, their are some applications of this that have seemed timeless... the moral implications of murder, for example. However, for the most part, the application of a philosophy, what constitutes normal and the moral implications of this, for example, are completely relative based on time period and context. It IS all relative... in application. Shared beliefs, however, due exist, mostly in philosophical terms, occasionally in application.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

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