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Thread: Just Plain Wrong

  1. #1011
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    Re: Just Plain Wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    That's all well and good. However, natural is being used in a specific context, here. Do try to keep up.
    Well, I think it is up for lpast how he uses the term.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

  2. #1012
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    Re: Just Plain Wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by MadLib View Post
    It's a common usage term. I'm a student of psychology and I learned that many terms such as "psychopath" "sociopath" are not actually used. Homophobia is more word play than anything else. In a sense however it is correct, the people who are referred to as homophobes often have something nasty to say about homosexuality, and often fear it.
    I know it is a common term, but it is common because those who wish to discredit those who do not embrace the morality and wisdom of homosexuality throw it around a lot. That doesn't mean one can't avoid it and point out the sinister overtones it seems to have.
    Last edited by Wessexman; 12-24-11 at 05:45 AM.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

  3. #1013
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    Re: Just Plain Wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    The term "Normal" is being used in the premises, while the conclusion is about the morality of the thing which they have deemed to be normal or abnormal in the premise. In these situations, the argument begs the question.
    It can still be part of a valid argument. It depends on how they define natural and how they go about proving its role in deciding what is moral.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

  4. #1014
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    Re: Just Plain Wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    It can still be part of a valid argument. It depends on how they define natural and how they go about proving its role in deciding what is moral.
    Given that morality is inherently subjective, I don't see that particular line of reasoning going very far anyway.
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
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  5. #1015
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    Re: Just Plain Wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    Given that morality is inherently subjective, I don't see that particular line of reasoning going very far anyway.
    Well morality, in the general sense, makes no sense without a subject, but I have an idea you are misusing the term subjective.
    Last edited by Wessexman; 12-24-11 at 06:11 AM.
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  6. #1016
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    Re: Just Plain Wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    It can still be part of a valid argument. It depends on how they define natural and how they go about proving its role in deciding what is moral.
    Sure, but any argument of that type would be demonstrably unsound if if is presented while using a computer.

  7. #1017
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    Re: Just Plain Wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    Sure, but any argument of that type would be demonstrably unsound if if is presented while using a computer.
    Unless it was an argument that defined nature according Essences and Formal and Final Causes and did not see these being violated in man's case by using a computer. There is of course even a difference between something contrary to the nature, in this sense, and simply something other than the natural function involved. For instance if we say, using such a definition, that deafness is contrary to the nature of an ear, which is to hear; an earring (without going into an in depth analysis of such topics) could be said to be not contrary to the nature of an ear, as long as it did not interfere with hearing, but nor its natural function either. In general those who try and construct these kind of arguments object only to what is contrary to nature and not simply superfluous, if that is the correct term.
    Last edited by Wessexman; 12-24-11 at 09:04 AM.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

  8. #1018
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    Re: Just Plain Wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    It can still be part of a valid argument. It depends on how they define natural and how they go about proving its role in deciding what is moral.
    Try it, and I'll just point out that even kissing is not natural. The mouth is for eating! Then I'll hit oral sex.
    "Yes I read the 9th [amendment]. It doesn't say **** about abortion." -Jamesrage

  9. #1019
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    Re: Just Plain Wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by misterman View Post
    Try it, and I'll just point out that even kissing is not natural. The mouth is for eating! Then I'll hit oral sex.
    See the post right above yours.

    By the way, depending on how you define such things, I don't see what would stop you arguing that one organ, such as the mouth, had multiple Final Causes, to use a particular technical language, and therefore natural functions. This is obviously what would, and has, be argued in many cases.
    Last edited by Wessexman; 12-24-11 at 09:39 AM.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

  10. #1020
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    Re: Just Plain Wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See the post right above yours.

    By the way, depending on how you define such things, I don't see what would stop you arguing that one organ, such as the mouth, had multiple Final Causes, to use a particular technical language, and therefore natural functions. This is obviously what would, and has, be argued in many cases.
    I still win.
    "Yes I read the 9th [amendment]. It doesn't say **** about abortion." -Jamesrage

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