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Thread: I don't Get It

  1. #21
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    Re: I don't Get It

    Quote Originally Posted by Baralis View Post
    I feel that marriage should be left to the religious establishment and all government involvement should be removed. However it is obvious the government needs to be involved with contractual agreements where children, property, ect are involved. I think a better option would be to allow contractual agreements between any individuals of adult age to cover these areas instead of having "marriage" automatically include them. Marriage and laws should be completely separate and in no way involve one another. For those that may argue for example that property should automatically go to the spouse upon death that is something they can manage at the time of a marriage but separately.
    I agree that the government should entirely get out of the marriage business. In fact, most courts now treat unmarried couples - straight or gay - exactly the same as married when it comes to property and children if in a marriage-like relationship.

    To the extent "marriage" matters to government, it should on be the economic and parenting relationship that the government has any interest in. The concept of "marriage" itself isn't a government concern, or at least shouldn't be.

    Unfortunately, red flag social issues - gay marriage, flag burning, abortion - tend to consume our politics when actually very little of anything of those issues change regardless of who is elected.

    The gay marriage issue is becoming a real handicap to the Republican candidates, but one they are stuck with. Because "flip flop" has become a dirty word in politics, modifying their position is all but impossible. The notable exception is Ron Paul, but his lack of anti-gay talk put up a wall between himself and the religious right, which also has much overlapping with the Tea Party.

    Even among those who oppose gay marriage itself, most are not vehemently anti-gay and don't like strong homophobic declarations - putting candidates like Bachman in a real box. But for her extreme social stances she would be a far more viable candidate now.

    Herman Cain proved that Republicans really aren't the bigots they oft portrayed to be because 'Republican" and far-religious-rightwing and Tea-Party are not the same. The latter are only vocal fringes of the Republicans.

    The gay rights movement has won. There is only the uncomfortable lag time between now and then that is accepted.
    Last edited by joko104; 12-06-11 at 10:12 PM.

  2. #22
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    Re: I don't Get It

    Quote Originally Posted by Middleground View Post
    I have no idea what you are trying to say here.

    A civil union should be no different that a traditional marriage in the eyes of the law.
    And I'm absolutely FINE that we disagree with me on that issue. Its somewhat comforting to know that while you and I disagree, Bill Clinton and Barrack Obama agree with me.

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    Re: I don't Get It

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    Because equal protection under the law should trump your personal feelings about gays, if that is how you feel

    Besides, the whole argument about civil unions vs. marriages is based on a faulty premise anyways. Gay marriage - not some bull**** politically correct term like "gay civil union" - should be recognized by the government, period, if we're interested in equal rights for all.
    And of course you are an intelligent individual and recognize that not everyone shares that opinion with you. But we can still like, appreciate, even RESPECT President Obama and all those other democrats who are so stupid and bigoted and hate filled that they might believe otherwise...right?

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    Re: I don't Get It

    Quote Originally Posted by Aunt Spiker View Post
    Because the government is there to defend and protect our rights. . . more so: the judicial system is there to defend and protect our rights.
    I agree we should recognize the rights of parents but I question the avenue you have accepted. I find it far more dangerous to your freedom going to government solving the issue than the issue itself. Instead of the issue being solved and living on, now the person that took the kid mostly out of anger is jail and/or will have to go through hoops just to get back to where they could otherwise be outside of using government. Not a solution if you ask me. The fact is this is far more deciding rights than protecting rights and for that reason I do not support it.
    Last edited by Henrin; 12-06-11 at 10:34 PM.

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    Re: I don't Get It

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    And of course you are an intelligent individual and recognize that not everyone shares that opinion with you. But we can still like, appreciate, even RESPECT President Obama and all those other democrats who are so stupid and bigoted and hate filled that they might believe otherwise...right?
    Sure, I respect other people and their opinions. But I personally just think the whole argument behind "gay civil unions" vice "gay marriage" is faulty - and numerous folks on this board has demonstrated why multiple times. And the cold, hard, truth is that President Obama has been woefully passive on the issue of gay rights, and he doesn't even support gay marriage (not publicly at least). So yeah, he and many other Dems are behind the 8 ball on this.
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
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    Re: I don't Get It

    Quote Originally Posted by Middleground View Post

    1) When it comes to marriage, is it not a question of religion? Should it not be the choice of each religion whether or not they want to marry gay couples?
    Someone may have pointed this out already, but whether or not churches recognize same-sex marriage is not at issue. What is at issue is whether or not the government will do so. Churches are, and ever have been free to marry whomever they please.

    Quote Originally Posted by Middleground View Post
    2) Whether it's marriage or civil union, don't either one qualify as "redefining?" Why would it be too difficult to "redefine" marriage but not civil union? One would think that in the eyes of the law, legislation would have to change in either circumstance.
    Hunstman is echoing the concerns of various (frankly) reactionary elements that are afraid of the precedent that would be set by blanket government acceptance of same-sex marriage. It's not a rational position.

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    Re: I don't Get It

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    And I'm absolutely FINE that we disagree with me on that issue. Its somewhat comforting to know that while you and I disagree, Bill Clinton and Barrack Obama agree with me.
    Do you not believe in the separation of church and state?

    And so what that Obama and Clinton agree with your position? Does that automatically make your stance correct?
    No men are anywhere, and Im allowed to go in, because Im the owner of the pageant and therefore Im inspecting it, Trump said... Is everyone OK? You know, theyre standing there with no clothes. Is everybody OK? And you see these incredible looking women, and so I sort of get away with things like that.

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    Re: I don't Get It

    Quote Originally Posted by Aderleth View Post
    Hunstman is echoing the concerns of various (frankly) reactionary elements that are afraid of the precedent that would be set by blanket government acceptance of same-sex marriage. It's not a rational position.
    I agree.

    Maybe they should take a look at Canada and see that after 10 years of gay marriage rights, we have not turned into a bunch of low life heathens. If you were to ask me, I'd say that we have become much more fabuleth!
    Last edited by Middleground; 12-06-11 at 10:49 PM.
    No men are anywhere, and Im allowed to go in, because Im the owner of the pageant and therefore Im inspecting it, Trump said... Is everyone OK? You know, theyre standing there with no clothes. Is everybody OK? And you see these incredible looking women, and so I sort of get away with things like that.

  9. #29
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    Re: I don't Get It

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    I agree we should recognize the rights of parents but I question the avenue you have accepted. I find it far more dangerous to your freedom going to government solving the issue than the issue itself. Instead of the issue being solved and living on, now the person that took the kid mostly out of anger is jail and/or will have to go through hoops just to get back to where they could otherwise be outside of using government. Not a solution if you ask me. The fact is this is far more deciding rights than protecting rights and for that reason I do not support it.
    You're fooling yourself when you think that people are going to behave maturely and responsibly all the time if they're just expected to. When people are mature the government / judiciary doens't need to step in because they are capable and willing to handle life on their own.

    But many aren't - many never will be . . . and so, yes, that's what the judiciary is for.

    I don't know why you're arguing otherwise. You seem to be wanting something that actually exists for many people - but not for everyone (responsibility and civility)
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  10. #30
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    Re: I don't Get It

    Quote Originally Posted by Middleground View Post
    Do you not believe in the separation of church and state?

    And so what that Obama and Clinton agree with your position? Does that automatically make your stance correct?
    Obviously I believe it to be correct...otherwise I would change it. Just as you believe yours to be correct, nor do I expect you to change it. Again...cant help but wonder why Huntsman's position causes such perplexed ideation that it inspires you to start a thread, yet...none with regard to Obama's position. Ever the case...always an issue with the conservative candidate. Liberal...meh...BFD...

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