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Thread: Pregnant #OccupySeattle Protester Miscarries After Being Kicked, Pepper Sprayed

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    Re: Pregnant #OccupySeattle Protester Miscarries After Being Kicked, Pepper Sprayed

    Quote Originally Posted by liblady View Post
    so a woman shouldn't drive while pregnant? she has more of a chance of losing her baby in a car accident than at a protest in the u.s.
    If she chose to drive in a demolition derby, she's an idiot.
    If she chose to bungey jump, she's an idiot,
    If she chose to put herself into any potentially dangerous situation, she's an idiot.

    It's always gotta be somebody else's fault. Personal accountability? He died twenty years ago.

    General comment: Liberals always seem to find someone else to blame. Big-Bad_______ (insert group that applies). Whatever happened to responsibility? He died, too.
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    Re: Pregnant #OccupySeattle Protester Miscarries After Being Kicked, Pepper Sprayed

    It's sad that she lost her baby. But I am not going to immediately blame any police for it without more information and a medical report, especially since she is homeless and living outside in Seattle (which is sad in itself).

    The protesters were blocking traffic and given warning that pepper spray was going to be used. She must have been in the group at the intersection of 5th Ave and Pine St refusing to move in order to have been sprayed.

    If she was really kicked by a police officer, then that cop should be investigated for using too much force (providing she wasn't doing anything violent against the cop). However, it is not reasonable to assume that the cop should have really had any reason to believe the woman was pregnant since she was only 3 months along and not exactly showing and it was most likely very loud there. Unless an investigation revealed a cop did kick her in the stomach knowing she was pregnant because he heard her or reasonably should have heard her, there is no way that he should be charged with the death of the fetus. Same thing for the cop on the bike, and he was even less likely to cause a miscarriage. Unless she was run over by the bike, which wouldn't fit with her story of being sprayed by both cops immediately after.

    I have a lot of doubt about the validity of her claim. Her being a part of the Occupy Seattle movement and having specifically been a part of that particular incident very likely could have played a major part in the miscarriage due to the stress of it. But I highly doubt the OC spray itself caused her to miscarry in away. Being sprayed may have led to stress causing the miscarriage, but I don't think it could have been the spray itself. It had to be cold outside and the baby was still fine until almost a week after the incident. Seems a little weird that either kicked or especially shot with pepper spray would cause a person to miscarry a week later. Stress from the situation she is in, yes, but I can't see the other things being directly responsible. Maybe her medical records and possibly some footage of the cop kicking her or perhaps the bruise he left.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

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    Re: Pregnant #OccupySeattle Protester Miscarries After Being Kicked, Pepper Sprayed

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    It's sad that she lost her baby. But I am not going to immediately blame any police for it without more information and a medical report, especially since she is homeless and living outside in Seattle (which is sad in itself).

    The protesters were blocking traffic and given warning that pepper spray was going to be used. She must have been in the group at the intersection of 5th Ave and Pine St refusing to move in order to have been sprayed.

    If she was really kicked by a police officer, then that cop should be investigated for using too much force (providing she wasn't doing anything violent against the cop). However, it is not reasonable to assume that the cop should have really had any reason to believe the woman was pregnant since she was only 3 months along and not exactly showing and it was most likely very loud there. Unless an investigation revealed a cop did kick her in the stomach knowing she was pregnant because he heard her or reasonably should have heard her, there is no way that he should be charged with the death of the fetus. Same thing for the cop on the bike, and he was even less likely to cause a miscarriage. Unless she was run over by the bike, which wouldn't fit with her story of being sprayed by both cops immediately after.

    I have a lot of doubt about the validity of her claim. Her being a part of the Occupy Seattle movement and having specifically been a part of that particular incident very likely could have played a major part in the miscarriage due to the stress of it. But I highly doubt the OC spray itself caused her to miscarry in away. Being sprayed may have led to stress causing the miscarriage, but I don't think it could have been the spray itself. It had to be cold outside and the baby was still fine until almost a week after the incident. Seems a little weird that either kicked or especially shot with pepper spray would cause a person to miscarry a week later. Stress from the situation she is in, yes, but I can't see the other things being directly responsible. Maybe her medical records and possibly some footage of the cop kicking her or perhaps the bruise he left.
    The article does not say she was hit with a baton...does not say she was kicked in the stomach...all assumptions based on cry-babies' notions that police brutality is at the root of every incident OWS is involved in. Protesting involves some risk. If ya' can't stand the heat, get outa' the freakin' kitchen.
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    Re: Pregnant #OccupySeattle Protester Miscarries After Being Kicked, Pepper Sprayed

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    If she chose to drive in a demolition derby, she's an idiot.
    If she chose to bungey jump, she's an idiot,
    If she chose to put herself into any potentially dangerous situation, she's an idiot.

    It's always gotta be somebody else's fault. Personal accountability? He died twenty years ago.

    General comment: Liberals always seem to find someone else to blame. Big-Bad_______ (insert group that applies). Whatever happened to responsibility? He died, too.
    In many cases, Maggie, I agree with you. In this one, I do not. The reason is that while a pregnant person should avoid dangerous situations, a protest being dangerous is not as predictable as sky diving. In cases where there is a legitimate unknown, its not this lady's fault.

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    Re: Pregnant #OccupySeattle Protester Miscarries After Being Kicked, Pepper Sprayed

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    The bodily stress caused by being pepper sprayed is such that it cold trigger a miscarriage, not to mention some potential links between large doses of capsaicin and miscarriage.

    One common wive's tale told to women in later pregnancy is that they should eat spicy food to induce labor. Like many wive's tales, this one may have a grain of truth to it. My wives ObGyn even recommended it when she was a week late.
    Hadn't heard that wives tell before. My cooking wouldn't do them much good it seems, I'm a wuss when it comes to spice.

    As I said, is such warnings on the label of the pepper spray or included in police training? I honestly don't know, thus why I'm asking. Not necessarily for your opinion or your knowledge of it, but what would be commonly available to the cops in question. You state later its "common sense". Well Tucker, I frankly disagree. Prior to this conversation it wouldn't have even crossed my mind that pepper spray would potentially cause a miscarriage. I imagine perhaps that not having been with a pregnant wife or much younger siblings, so not having a ton of experience with pregnancies, may be a part of that. But I don't think its fair to term it as "common sense".

    Now, I understand your views with regards to cops. However, I think you're taking your PERSONAL views of how cops should act and allowing that to transpose itself onto how you feel people should "logically" feel if they are pro-life, which I think is a bit off base. Additionally, your own logic makes little sense in regards to your belief of the cops not being able to do more than an average citizen could do. For example, you give the situation on your yard. You don't want the cops to be able to do more than you could do with regards to them on your yard, yet if that was the case you'd have no recourse at all for them being on your yard as you can't imprision them, you can't charge them with a crime, you can't arrest them...which means, by your logic, the cop shouldn't be able to either because a cop should only be able to do what a citizen can do.

    I agree completely with you in regards to the over use of force. No, cops aren't perfect angels and they can absolutely abuse their authority. That said, when large groups of people are violating the law for a substantial amount of time in such a way that its significantly affecting the rights of others as well I don't have an issue with cops taking action to attempt to fix the issue rather than just stand by and let it occur until the people get sick of breaking the law. (not saying necessarily that was the case here. I don't honestly know what the case was here, and I don't think any of us really do).

    I also disagree that the level of threat to a police officer is essentially Zero to "Lethal" as you seem to suggest by saying they shouldn't use force unless its a situation they would need to pull their gun. Additionally, in mob settings "direct" threats are not necessarily the issue. For example if you've got 40 people piling forward barreling you over identifying one as a "direct" threat may be questionable; that person is just marching, that person is just protesting, etc. However, when you have a large host acting it creates a different situation and can cause other forms of danger and problems.

    I know, from a self defense stand point, if I have a gang of 10 guys coming at me, threatening me, yelling at me, posing a threat but not directly attacking me and then one takes a swing at me...I'm not treating that ONE guy as my only enemy or target or threat. Every one of those guys right there along side him, participating in the exact same kind of threatening action, had identified themselves as a potential threat and will be treated in kind if they make any indication what so ever towards my direction once that initial one had made a direct attack...because by positioning oneself as part of a group, in part in the immeidete situation, the individuals of that groups actions are reflected on the whole unless given ample reason to view otherwise. Similarly, if one guy at the front of a big mob chucks a bottle at a cop I view that as a direct attack on him. If 10 other guys are standing around him screaming, yelling, and waving a bottle as well I have no problem with that cop viewing all those individuals as a similar threat and assaslent. If those 10 guys, upon seeing the bottle thrown, shut up and stopped brandishing hteir bottles making it apparent they were not looking to engage in similar action then that'd be a different story and if the cop reacted to them all as attackers then I'd have issue.

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    Re: Pregnant #OccupySeattle Protester Miscarries After Being Kicked, Pepper Sprayed

    I don't care who you are or what cause you are supporting, going to a protest like this pregnant means you don't have your priorities straight. She has no one but herself to blame.
    Let evil swiftly befall those who have wrongly condemned us

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    Re: Pregnant #OccupySeattle Protester Miscarries After Being Kicked, Pepper Sprayed

    Quote Originally Posted by digsbe View Post
    How unfortunate. If this is true the cop should be charged heavily. However, if she was violating laws she should also be charged.
    I think that in order to charge the cop, you would have to show intent and knowledge that she was pregnant. I'm not a lawyer and those are not legal terms. I suspect that if you flashed a stream of photos of women 3 months pregnant randomly with photos of non pregnant women at three second intervals, very few would guess much greater than random, particularly if the women were bundled up in clothes appropriate for standing in the street in Seattle at this time of year. Hindsight is always easier than foresight, and at this point, I have seen nothing but the allegations from the woman. Surely no conflict of interest there.

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    Re: Pregnant #OccupySeattle Protester Miscarries After Being Kicked, Pepper Sprayed

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    In many cases, Maggie, I agree with you. In this one, I do not. The reason is that while a pregnant person should avoid dangerous situations, a protest being dangerous is not as predictable as sky diving. In cases where there is a legitimate unknown, its not this lady's fault.
    Any woman who didn't understand the danger she's putting her child in, by participating in this protest is too stupid to be a parent and should be sterilized.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Pregnant #OccupySeattle Protester Miscarries After Being Kicked, Pepper Sprayed

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    The article does not say she was hit with a baton...does not say she was kicked in the stomach...all assumptions based on cry-babies' notions that police brutality is at the root of every incident OWS is involved in. Protesting involves some risk. If ya' can't stand the heat, get outa' the freakin' kitchen.
    I didn't say anything about her being hit with a baton (not that I can remember or find anyway). If I did, it was definitely a mistake.

    She claims she was kicked in the stomach and hit with a bike by two different police officers. I am basing what I said off of that. If she was kicked in the stomach by a police officer without actually doing anything but blocking traffic, I'd call that excessive force. The bike incident, if it happened at all, was almost certainly an accident. I doubt a cop would purposely hit someone with a bike without knocking them down.

    That being said, I doubt her claims are very close to the true story. Very little evidence exists that cops hit, kicked, or ran into her at all yet. And I doubt very much that being sprayed with pepper spray is likely to cause a miscarriage a week later. Possible? Sure. What is more likely is the stress of being sprayed and what led to getting sprayed actually being the cause, not the chemicals in the spray. And if it was the stress from that, then it is her fault for putting herself in that position. If it was from getting kicked by the cop, there's proof of this (unlikely though, since most miscarriages are hard to identify a specific cause, especially a week after an incident) and proof is found that he kicked her without provocation, then it is his fault. Without a lot of evidence to support her story and that the cop heard her say she was pregnant, I wouldn't agree with charging him for fetal homicide or anything like that.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

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    Re: Pregnant #OccupySeattle Protester Miscarries After Being Kicked, Pepper Sprayed

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    In many cases, Maggie, I agree with you. In this one, I do not. The reason is that while a pregnant person should avoid dangerous situations, a protest being dangerous is not as predictable as sky diving. In cases where there is a legitimate unknown, its not this lady's fault.
    Well, of course, we'll agree to disagree. But my take on it is, "Would you think it prudent to take a 3-year-old to one of these demonstrations?" If that 3-year-old were injured by no direct action of coppers toward that 3-year-old, whose fault would it be? No one's? I don't take that stance. I take the stance that it is a parent's responsibility not to put her child into such a situation. And any protest attended by hundreds, if not thousands, of people, is risky. That's just the fact. No opinion required.

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    I didn't say anything about her being hit with a baton (not that I can remember or find anyway). If I did, it was definitely a mistake.

    She claims she was kicked in the stomach and hit with a bike by two different police officers. I am basing what I said off of that. If she was kicked in the stomach by a police officer without actually doing anything but blocking traffic, I'd call that excessive force. The bike incident, if it happened at all, was almost certainly an accident. I doubt a cop would purposely hit someone with a bike without knocking them down.

    That being said, I doubt her claims are very close to the true story. Very little evidence exists that cops hit, kicked, or ran into her at all yet. And I doubt very much that being sprayed with pepper spray is likely to cause a miscarriage a week later. Possible? Sure. What is more likely is the stress of being sprayed and what led to getting sprayed actually being the cause, not the chemicals in the spray. And if it was the stress from that, then it is her fault for putting herself in that position. If it was from getting kicked by the cop, there's proof of this (unlikely though, since most miscarriages are hard to identify a specific cause, especially a week after an incident) and proof is found that he kicked her without provocation, then it is his fault. Without a lot of evidence to support her story and that the cop heard her say she was pregnant, I wouldn't agree with charging him for fetal homicide or anything like that.
    I sorta' kinda' almost agree.
    Last edited by MaggieD; 11-22-11 at 04:40 PM.
    The devil whispered in my ear, "You cannot withstand the storm." I whispered back, "I am ​the storm."

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