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Thread: Pregnant #OccupySeattle Protester Miscarries After Being Kicked, Pepper Sprayed

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    Re: Pregnant #OccupySeattle Protester Miscarries After Being Kicked, Pepper Sprayed

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    Do you expect there'll be sympathy for this young woman? Not in most camps there won't. Three months' pregnant. She had no business being there. They ought to appoint a guardian ad litem for her dead baby and sue her. Complete bumbling idiot.

    'Course maybe this is the latest "slip-and-fall scam."
    you're right, maggie. we should all be wary of the police knocking us down, or beating us, or assaulting us with pepper spray for no legitimate reason. it's on the people, not the authorities, they are only doing their jobs.

    who know if what she says it legit, but why do we condemn the police in other countries for their treatment of protestors but absolve our own police?

    Originally Posted by johnny_rebson:

    These are the same liberals who forgot how Iraq attacked us on 9/11.


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    Re: Pregnant #OccupySeattle Protester Miscarries After Being Kicked, Pepper Sprayed

    Quote Originally Posted by liblady View Post
    you're right, maggie. we should all be wary of the police knocking us down, or beating us, or assaulting us with pepper spray for no legitimate reason. it's on the people, not the authorities, they are only doing their jobs.

    who know if what she says it legit, but why do we condemn the police in other countries for their treatment of protestors but absolve our own police?
    Come on, LibLady. But actually, you're right. We all should definitely be wary of the police knocking us down or assaulting us with pepper spray when we're in the middle of a group of hundreds of people bent on not obeying legitimate orders. Yes. Yes, we should.

    The woman is/was an idiot. If something that happened in that demonstration caused her baby's death, that's on her.
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    Re: Pregnant #OccupySeattle Protester Miscarries After Being Kicked, Pepper Sprayed

    we disagree. if a direct police action caused this, it's on them.

    Originally Posted by johnny_rebson:

    These are the same liberals who forgot how Iraq attacked us on 9/11.


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    Re: Pregnant #OccupySeattle Protester Miscarries After Being Kicked, Pepper Sprayed

    How unfortunate. If this is true the cop should be charged heavily. However, if she was violating laws she should also be charged.
    When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser. -Socrates
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    Re: Pregnant #OccupySeattle Protester Miscarries After Being Kicked, Pepper Sprayed

    Quote Originally Posted by Krhazy View Post
    Nevermind the responsibility of the police to refrain from beating pregnant women.

    She's apparently a homeless pregnant women. I would say the welfare of her baby depends a lot upon the priorities of politics.
    A mother's #1 priority is protect her child. The first step for this woman to do that, was to stay away from the protest.

    I feel bad for the child, but have zero sympathy for her.

    And, while we're on the subject, why are the Libbos outraged? It was just a fetus and a fetus isn't a person. Right?
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Pregnant #OccupySeattle Protester Miscarries After Being Kicked, Pepper Sprayed

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    A mother's #1 priority is protect her child. The first step for this woman to do that, was to stay away from the protest.

    I feel bad for the child, but have zero sympathy for her.

    And, while we're on the subject, why are the Libbos outraged? It was just a fetus and a fetus isn't a person. Right?
    so a woman shouldn't drive while pregnant? she has more of a chance of losing her baby in a car accident than at a protest in the u.s.

    Originally Posted by johnny_rebson:

    These are the same liberals who forgot how Iraq attacked us on 9/11.


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    Re: Pregnant #OccupySeattle Protester Miscarries After Being Kicked, Pepper Sprayed

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    In regards to the pepper spray, I can't say. I'd need to see the warning label and training given to police officers with regards to it. I wouldn't think, if not told, that Pepper Spray = Likely to miscarriage. The two things wouldn't even enter my mind as a likely potential side effect. I would absolutely not consider that lethal force.
    The bodily stress caused by being pepper sprayed is such that it cold trigger a miscarriage, not to mention some potential links between large doses of capsaicin and miscarriage.

    One common wive's tale told to women in later pregnancy is that they should eat spicy food to induce labor. Like many wive's tales, this one may have a grain of truth to it. My wives ObGyn even recommended it when she was a week late.

    In regards to the police batons to the stomach. Absolutely, if its found they were aware she was prengant I would agree with that notion. However, you're also requiring that people 1) take her story as the full truth and 2) that in the midst of a large, unruly crowd where there's significant chaos that the cops in question could identify that it was her that had yelled it.
    I disagree that one and two are required. In fact, I would say that all police should operate under the assumption that any woman they are beating about the belly might be pregnant. I would actually put such physical attacks in the "unnecessary force" category if there is no direct physical threat to the officer (such a threat that using his firearm would be appropriate). Any cop that hits a protester, especially a female protester, who is not a direct threat in the stomach deserves to be given identical treatment in return, IMO. Of course, doing the same in return is a crime, while the cops behavior is considered appropraite.


    The only thing that is required to hold the view I propose is 1. That any woman can be pregnant and a stomach blow is lethal force against said fetus and 2. that police officers should not be granted extra rights not retained by the people. If I can't legally engage in a behavior, then police officers should be allowed to engage in that same behavior.

    If a bunch of people were sitting on my lawn, and I aske dthem to disperse and tehy said no, I would nt be legally allowed to pepper spray them or hit them in the stomach to get them off of my property. I would be charged with felony battery at the very least, and in the case of hitting a person with a baton, I might get charged with assault with a deadly weapon. this is because the people are not real threats to my person.



    If you fire guns into a crowd of people its a reasonalbe expectation that someone could die.
    Depends on the ammo used. Rubber bullets are considered non-lethal (despite the fact that they do kill). But many people would be bothered by the use of rubber bullets and firearms to disperse a peaceful, albeit disrespectful, crowd.


    To a point, I agree. However, I think as in most cases with cops, its a balance of safety of both the people in question and the cops themselves and the reasonable expectations on both sides. If you hear "I'm pregnant" shouted from some random person you can't identify in the midst of an unruly mob of 100 people, I think there's a reasonable expectation that a police officer should attempt to be aware if it becomes obvious who said pregnant person is an respond accordingly but not to put themselves or their duty at risk by forgoing just about any activity towards any person of said group that may have the slightest chance of causing a miscarriage.
    My belief is that if a police officer is using physical force at all there needs to be a real risk involved (either to themselves or to others). They should only use force in teh same way that any regular citizen would be allowed to use force. Basically self-defense or defense of another. That obviously clouds my perception of these events.

    I don't need to agree with the protesters in their views or tactics to come to the conclusion that the use of force I have seen in many cases was inappropriate (I've only seen the one video where the fat walrus looking cop was walking back and forth pepper spray a bunch of people who were sitting down chanting as well as anotehr video of cops pounding people in the stomach with nightsticks, the former was more egregious than the latter one, actually, but the latter one was borderline).

    What I find disturbing, though, is that agreement or disagreement with the cause and movement is the primary determinant of whether or not some people think excessive force is used (not all, but some). that mentality is hypocricy, because the cause is irrelevant. Hell, we should be defending those we disagree with even more vehemently than those we agree with.


    Heck, unless there's something about pepper spray I don't know about that specifically can harm pregnancy, stating that pepper spray is "lethal force" for being used on a pregnant woman than touching somoene briskly could be considered that as well since that could cause them to stumble and fall in a crowd which could cause a miscarriage....so by your logic it would seem that if a crowd of people has one person yell "I'm pregnant" the only reasonable stance for a prolifer would be for a cop to just stand still and not jostle anyone or else it could potentially be lethal force.
    Touching someone briskly does not cause cardiac and respiratory distress. Pepper spray does. Those are very real risks on the fetus of a pregnant women. The very things that cause pepper spray to be effective are things that simple common sense tells us places fetuses at risk.

    That's a far cry from brisk touching and doesn't require any special knowledge about pepper spray other than what it does to people.



    Issues with consistant logic 4 or 5 steps down the line is significantly different to me than being a "hypocrite" .
    Hypocrisy depends on the motivation for the logical inconsistency more than anything else. If the reasoning for their logical inconsistency is primarily because they disagree with the protesters, then they are certainly being hypocrites. But if it's because they failed to think their logic through to it's conclusion, it's not hypocrisy.

    My point isn't necessarily about hypocrisy so much as it is about how the situations can be considered the same given a specific logical framework.

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    Re: Pregnant #OccupySeattle Protester Miscarries After Being Kicked, Pepper Sprayed

    Quote Originally Posted by liblady View Post
    so a woman shouldn't drive while pregnant? she has more of a chance of losing her baby in a car accident than at a protest in the u.s.
    Why come up with an example which proves nothing to support a belief? No one is saying that a woman should not drive when pregnant, but if the drive results in accident which results in a miscarriage, no one is to blame, especially the cop that covers the accident. All life is a calculated risk. Some risks are worth taking, some are not. If I had a child to protect, born or unborn, I would not stand them in the middle of a crowd in a highly volatile situation.

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    Re: Pregnant #OccupySeattle Protester Miscarries After Being Kicked, Pepper Sprayed

    Some states have laws that rightfully make it illegal to kill a fetus. The right course of action would be charging the cop with the unlawful killing of a fetus while also charging the woman with whatever laws she was violating. Justice for the unborn killed and for the woman who violated the laws, this is the right course of action imo.
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    Re: Pregnant #OccupySeattle Protester Miscarries After Being Kicked, Pepper Sprayed

    Quote Originally Posted by liblady View Post
    so a woman shouldn't drive while pregnant? she has more of a chance of losing her baby in a car accident than at a protest in the u.s.
    Isn't driving kinda necessary? How necessary was it for her to be at the protest? I'm thinking not at all. Whatcha' think?

    Maybe she shouldn't go to the hospital when she goes into labor, because there might be a surgical mistake, too.

    Anymore stupid examples to prove your point?

    Why do you care about a dead fetus, anyway? There are thousands of fetuses murdered everyday and you seem too upset about that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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