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Thread: Pregnant #OccupySeattle Protester Miscarries After Being Kicked, Pepper Sprayed

  1. #21
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    Re: Pregnant #OccupySeattle Protester Miscarries After Being Kicked, Pepper Sprayed

    Quote Originally Posted by X Factor View Post
    As I said elsewhere, pepper spray is no weapon, it's a spice.
    Stand still X-Factor, and I will spice you right up with some pepper oil and then you can tell me how warm and fuzzy it makes you feel.

    I hope someone get video of what actually happened.

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    Re: Pregnant #OccupySeattle Protester Miscarries After Being Kicked, Pepper Sprayed

    identify the hypocrite members who blame the victim of a police induced miscarriage in this thread, who will be found opposing abortion in other threads
    we are negotiating about dividing a pizza and in the meantime israel is eating it
    once you're over the hill you begin to pick up speed

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    Re: Pregnant #OccupySeattle Protester Miscarries After Being Kicked, Pepper Sprayed

    Quote Originally Posted by Frolicking Dinosaurs View Post
    Stand still X-Factor, and I will spice you right up with some pepper oil and then you can tell me how warm and fuzzy it makes you feel.
    The absurdity of that point is actually best demonstrated by either saying "OK, then you should be fine if all police officers have their pepper spray replaced with oregano since it's really just swapping spices." or "A leg of lamb is just food up until I use it to bludgeon somebody senseless, at which point it becomes a weapon."

    I prefer the former, myself. How different would these pepper spraying incidents be if the cops were simply sprinkling oregano on people?

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    Re: Pregnant #OccupySeattle Protester Miscarries After Being Kicked, Pepper Sprayed

    Regardless of the way the events unfolded this is an unfortunate and sad event.

    Her story...which sorry, I don't take the cops NOR the occupiers stories during this as any kind of accurate truth, especially when the occupiers are actively pushing a political agenda and thus are more apt to present a situation in a way that suits said agenda...leaves a lot of questions up in the air. For all those getting on the cops and their supposed actions, my question would equally be with regards to the OWS protesters who apparently would hear her shouting and not go out of their way to make way to let her out, shield her, or escort her out of the group herself. Not to mention, both for the cops and the protestors, its not always easy to see someone 3 months pregnant as being visably pregnant and in the midst of a big mash of humanity its not hard to miss random shouts or miss who those shouts are coming from.

    The questions to her own judgement are legitimate as well. If you're truly concerned with your child, why are you going to a protest that you know around the country has gotten volatile at times and especially on your particular coat? Why are you, once going to said protest, moving towards the middle of large groups rather than staying on the outside where you are not going to get jostled and bumped into? I fail to believe the situation went from 0 to pepper spray and booting in 3 seconds flat, so why was she still hanging about during the ramp up. Her judgement is questionable here in regards to how seriously concerned she was for the health of the child in the first place.

    The pepper spray from the part of the cops, by and large I'd rather see less use of it. That said, I've known enough people I trust and heard enough about mass crowd type situations to understand that there's a lot of monday morning quarterbacking that can go on. I hope in all these situations, as time moves forward, reviews will be done to see that action was taken appropriately. However, the cops are being thrown in bad spots with this whole thing.

    Really, the situation is tragic all around. If she truly wanted to keep the child, even more so. I hope she recovers alright.

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    Re: Pregnant #OccupySeattle Protester Miscarries After Being Kicked, Pepper Sprayed

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    identify the hypocrite members who blame the victim of a police induced miscarriage in this thread, who will be found opposing abortion in other threads
    Identify the hyper partisan members who will take two different situations (an unintentional termination of a pregnancy and the intentional termination of one) and treat them like the same thing to score political points.

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    Re: Pregnant #OccupySeattle Protester Miscarries After Being Kicked, Pepper Sprayed

    Quote Originally Posted by X Factor View Post
    As I said elsewhere, pepper spray is no weapon, it's a spice.
    I'm guessing this is being facetious and not serious because it'd be ****ing retarded if you were. Pepper Spray is not fun stuff. I don’t consider it “lethal” (causing death in freak instances or certain limited scenarios doesn’t = lethal to me, elsewise everyone carrying a bottle of water is carrying a deadly weapon) but it’s far from spice.

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    Re: Pregnant #OccupySeattle Protester Miscarries After Being Kicked, Pepper Sprayed

    Quote Originally Posted by whysoserious View Post
    It's all fun and games until someone has an asthma attack and dies, or some lady has a miscarriage.
    For both sides frankly. It drives home that non-lethal action can still have bad consequences, and it should drive home to the protestors that there are greater consequences than just those they selfishly think of for themselves only with regards to their dismissal of the law or lawful orders by officers.

    Its this kind of crap that should make both sides stand back a bit and evalute this whole thing and the methods being undertaken.

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    Re: Pregnant #OccupySeattle Protester Miscarries After Being Kicked, Pepper Sprayed

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Identify the hyper partisan members who will take two different situations (an unintentional termination of a pregnancy and the intentional termination of one) and treat them like the same thing to score political points.
    Whether or not they are totally different situations is actually dependent on the reasoning people have for opposing abortion. If they consider fetuses to be full human lives, then they need to view this event from the perspective that the use of pepper spray and blows to the stomach with police batons constitute lethal force (with regard to fetuses). Then they need to look at whether or not lethal force was warranted in these instances (would they be just as supportive of police discharging their firearms into the crowd, for example).

    I've seen many people supporting the use of police batons to the stomach and pepper spray in these cases, both of which could qualify as lethal force for a gestating fetus. If people want fetuses to have full rights, then they need to redefine their views about what constitutes lethal force in these situations where an unknown number of fetuses may be present.

    Ultimately, it becomes about the consistency of people's logic.

    On the reverse side, we have people who support abortion on the basis that until the fetus is born it is n just a bundle of cells that are more up in arms about this than they really should be for the destruction of a collection of cells. It's akin to a bruise in such a logical framework, and is no worse than the pepper spray and blows to the stomache themselves.

    If the peorsn opposes or supports abortion for other reasons, they'd have a much different array of responses that could be logically consistent (depending on their specific logic).

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    Re: Pregnant #OccupySeattle Protester Miscarries After Being Kicked, Pepper Sprayed

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    Whether or not they are totally different situations is actually dependent on the reasoning people have for opposing abortion. If they consider fetuses to be full human lives, then they need to view this event from the perspective that the use of pepper spray and blows to the stomach with police batons constitute lethal force (with regard to fetuses).
    In regards to the pepper spray, I can't say. I'd need to see the warning label and training given to police officers with regards to it. I wouldn't think, if not told, that Pepper Spray = Likely to miscarriage. The two things wouldn't even enter my mind as a likely potential side effect. I would absolutely not consider that lethal force.

    In regards to the police batons to the stomach. Absolutely, if its found they were aware she was prengant I would agree with that notion. However, you're also requiring that people 1) take her story as the full truth and 2) that in the midst of a large, unruly crowd where there's significant chaos that the cops in question could identify that it was her that had yelled it.

    Then they need to look at whether or not lethal force was warranted in these instances (would they be just as supportive of police discharging their firearms into the crowd, for example).
    Again in both cases said lethal force hinges on the understanding of the cops that said force would likely or could likely result in lethality. If you fire guns into a crowd of people its a reasonalbe expectation that someone could die. If you pepper spray a crowd of people, it is not a reasonable expectation that such is likely to happen.

    I've seen many people supporting the use of police batons to the stomach and pepper spray in these cases, both of which could qualify as lethal force for a gestating fetus. If people want fetuses to have full rights, then they need to redefine their views about what constitutes lethal force in these situations where an unknown number of fetuses may be present.
    To a point, I agree. However, I think as in most cases with cops, its a balance of safety of both the people in question and the cops themselves and the reasonable expectations on both sides. If you hear "I'm pregnant" shouted from some random person you can't identify in the midst of an unruly mob of 100 people, I think there's a reasonable expectation that a police officer should attempt to be aware if it becomes obvious who said pregnant person is an respond accordingly but not to put themselves or their duty at risk by forgoing just about any activity towards any person of said group that may have the slightest chance of causing a miscarriage.

    Heck, unless there's something about pepper spray I don't know about that specifically can harm pregnancy, stating that pepper spray is "lethal force" for being used on a pregnant woman than touching somoene briskly could be considered that as well since that could cause them to stumble and fall in a crowd which could cause a miscarriage....so by your logic it would seem that if a crowd of people has one person yell "I'm pregnant" the only reasonable stance for a prolifer would be for a cop to just stand still and not jostle anyone or else it could potentially be lethal force.

    Ultimately, it becomes about the consistency of people's logic.
    I agree, however I think there's a large difference in calling someone a "hypocrite" for issues in logic that need to be extended out to a very long degree and in a very abstract way. Especially in the direction justabubba's comment seemed to be directed on which was focused specifically on the termination aspect, pinpointing both the miscarriage and the abortoin, rather than the fetal rights aspect.

    Issues with consistant logic 4 or 5 steps down the line is significantly different to me than being a "hypocrite" .

    If the peorsn opposes or supports abortion for other reasons, they'd have a much different array of responses that could be logically consistent (depending on their specific logic).
    And again, interesting point. I'd still say that such doesn't indicate the person is a hypocrite as much as it shows the issues with the logical argument .

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    Re: Pregnant #OccupySeattle Protester Miscarries After Being Kicked, Pepper Sprayed

    Quote Originally Posted by pbrauer View Post
    This is unbelievable!!!

    Pregnant #OccupySeattle Protester Miscarries After Being Kicked, Pepper Sprayed | Video Cafe


    A woman who was pepper sprayed during during a raid on Occupy Seattle last week is blaming police after she miscarried Sunday.

    Jennifer Fox, 19, told The Stranger that she had been with the Occupy protests since they started in Westlake Park. She said she was homeless and three months pregnant, but felt the need to join activists during their march last Tuesday.

    "I was standing in the middle of the crowd when the police started moving in," Fox recalled. "I was screaming, 'I am pregnant, I am pregnant. Let me through. I am trying to get out.'"

    She claimed that police hit her in the stomach twice before pepper spraying her. One officer struck her with his foot and another pushed his bicycle into her. It wasn't clear if either of those incidents were intentional."Right before I turned, both cops lifted their pepper spray and sprayed me. My eyes puffed up and my eyes swelled shut," Fox said.

    Seattle Post-Intelligencer photographer Joshua Trujillo snapped a picture of Fox in apparent agony as another activist carried her to an ambulance.Seattle fire department spokesman Kyle Moore told The Washington Post that a 19-year-old pregnant woman was among those that were examined by paramedics.

    [clip]
    Do you expect there'll be sympathy for this young woman? Not in most camps there won't. Three months' pregnant. She had no business being there. They ought to appoint a guardian ad litem for her dead baby and sue her. Complete bumbling idiot.

    'Course maybe this is the latest "slip-and-fall scam."

    "I was worried about it [when I joined the protests], but I didn't know it would be this bad. I didn't know that a cop would murder a baby that's not born yet... I am trying to get lawyers."
    The devil whispered in my ear, "You cannot withstand the storm." I whispered back, "I am ​the storm."

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