New York Muslims Rally To Protest NYPD Surveillance Program

Can't believe I had to use HuffPo, but the story is here:
New York Muslims Rally To Protest NYPD Surveillance Program.

Muslims are peacefully protesting the NYPD surveillance programs of mosques, middle eastern establishments such as stores and restaurants, and the profiling of ME cab drivers. I do not know how much of their message I support or do not because I don't know where the line between public safety and privacy needs to be drawn these days as I do not know what tactics the officers are truly using nor do I want to try to make an opinion. What I think is that this is a good discussion about where privacy ends and where profiling is necessary in this particular leg in the fight against terrorist tactics.

Most of these people protesting IMO are innocent of anything but I wanted to share this story because this protest has things that the OWS protesters do not:
1) A clear message- The only complaint is that these people want to be left alone as much as possible, they have said "respect us and we will respect you", they have said they are equally Muslim and American. I can respect this.
2) They have obeyed all laws, engaged in true peaceful assembly and free speech. No laws were broken, and they did not overstay their welcome.
3) No Violence, none whatsoever. They chanted a little, they prayed, they let their feelings be known. And they moved on.

So to summarize. I don't know how much I disagree or agree with these particular protesters but I do support their right to protest in this fashion. Imagine that, they used very American values and tactics in an orderly fashion to opine on what they feel is an injustice and I hope that the issue is resolved in a mutually agreeable fashion.

Take note OWS, THIS is how you protest if you choose to do so.

This has nothing to do with OWS so I don't know why you're bringing that into it.

I support their protest. If it can be done to Muslims it can be done to anyone. Freedom from unwarranted expansion of powers must be protected for all Americans, or none shall have it.

Imagine that, they used very American values and tactics in an orderly fashion to opine on what they feel is an injustice and I hope that the issue is resolved in a mutually agreeable fashion.

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Are they not American? Or do you just assume that because it says "Muslims"?

whysoserious said:

Are they not American? Or do you just assume that because it says "Muslims"?

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Let me explain where I am at on that. The muslim proters are american citizens or otherwise here on guest visas. I am not commenting on them with that statement, I am commenting on the unamerican activities of some of the OWS protesters such as charging police, ****ting in public parks, and otherwise doing nothing but bitching and griping for their own personal reasons. I am proud of what the muslim protesters did whether or not I ultimately agree with them.

Temporal said:

This has nothing to do with OWS so I don't know why you're bringing that into it.

I support their protest. If it can be done to Muslims it can be done to anyone. Freedom from unwarranted expansion of powers must be protected for all Americans, or none shall have it.

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Actually, it very much does. You have a two groups protesting around the same area, one is an unruly group of idiots who have engaged in third world behavior and the other group did it the right way. The sad thing is the group that did it the right way are the ones that some people stereotype as unruly savages, and the one that did it wrong(OWS) are the ones that some people call americans.

LaMidRighter said:

Actually, it very much does. You have a two groups protesting around the same area,.

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And that's really the only similarity they share in my opinion.

LaMidRighter said:

Actually, it very much does. You have a two groups protesting around the same area, one is an unruly group of idiots who have engaged in third world behavior and the other group did it the right way. The sad thing is the group that did it the right way are the ones that some people stereotype as unruly savages, and the one that did it wrong(OWS) are the ones that some people call americans.

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So do you want this thread to be about OWS or something else? Because you brought it up in the OP so clearly you're baiting the issue. People like you hated the OWS movement from the start and spoke out against it from day one, so please spare us all the feigned outrage over their protest tactics. You never supported them in the first place. Conservatives made it their #1 priority to discredit the movement because they perceived it to be liberal, even though it had nothing to do with the liberal vs. conservative paradigm; evidenced by the fact that it was a protest under a NYC liberal government, state liberal government, and Federal liberal government.

OWS did deteriorate over time but it had a big helping hand from the media, which caused it to lose a lot of public support. People became more focused on the fact that people were camping and the rights surrounding that, instead of looking at the original message of OWS which is something that is still incredibly relevant and important to our times. The media did a successful job of obfuscating that message, and the corporate whores in the conservative ranks who defend corporate socialism ate it up and turned it into bile.

You can also argue that the OWS protest made it safer for Muslims to come out and be more visible, so that they aren't the soul activism on the move. People hate Muslims just as much as they hate so-called liberal fanatics in this country. People are sick of the partisan spin, including these Muslims, and they want it to end.

Turn on your brain for a change instead of spewing the same old rhetoric.

LaMidRighter said:

Actually, it very much does. You have a two groups protesting around the same area, one is an unruly group of idiots who have engaged in third world behavior and the other group did it the right way. The sad thing is the group that did it the right way are the ones that some people stereotype as unruly savages, and the one that did it wrong(OWS) are the ones that some people call americans.

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Your problem is that you are mixing OWS protesters with people who showed up and camped out because there were events going on. When you have a camp out in public, you're going to get vagrants showing up... obviously.

Travelsonic said:

And that's really the only similarity they share in my opinion.

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No kidding.

Anything to take pot shots at the much-hated "libbos", I suppose. :shrug:

whysoserious said:

Your problem is that you are mixing OWS protesters with people who showed up and camped out because there were events going on. When you have a camp out in public, you're going to get vagrants showing up... obviously.

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Okay, but if the protests did not take liberties not found within the rights then this would not have happened at all. This is the point in the contrast. Past that I was sharing a protest that I agree with. It's not complicated.

whysoserious said:

Your problem is that you are mixing OWS protesters with people who showed up and camped out because there were events going on. When you have a camp out in public, you're going to get vagrants showing up... obviously.

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ahhhh.... goooottcha..... so the OWS Protestors, by definition, are the goodies, while if your a baddie, by definition, you can't be an OWS protestor, irrespective of what you do or say, because OWS'ers must be the goodies.

so, for example, if you are carrying a sign decrying police brutality and yourself become an innocent victim of police brutality, that day you are an OWSer. but if the next day you get released from the hospital and rape another protestor, then on that day you're not an OWS'er. OWSdom, therefore, is protected from ever turning out to be a bunch of idiot kids with no self-reliance, self-discipline, or self-control; but instead becomes a mythical pure unicorn.

:doh NOW it makes sense. thanks whysoserious! :

cpwill said:

ahhhh.... goooottcha..... so the OWS Protestors, by definition, are the goodies, while if your a baddie, by definition, you can't be an OWS protestor, irrespective of what you do or say, because OWS'ers must be the goodies.

so, for example, if you are carrying a sign decrying police brutality and yourself become an innocent victim of police brutality, that day you are an OWSer. but if the next day you get released from the hospital and rape another protestor, then on that day you're not an OWS'er. OWSdom, therefore, is protected from ever turning out to be a bunch of idiot kids with no self-reliance, self-discipline, or self-control; but instead becomes a mythical pure unicorn.

:doh NOW it makes sense. thanks whysoserious! :

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Now you are just putting words into my mouth. I don't think I ever said there were no bad OWS protesters, but I am pretty sure it is common knowledge (and common sense), that the homeless have basically "joined" the cause. Just use your head, cpwill, it's not that tough.

cpwill said:

ahhhh.... goooottcha..... so the OWS Protestors, by definition, are the goodies, while if your a baddie, by definition, you can't be an OWS protestor, irrespective of what you do or say, because OWS'ers must be the goodies.

so, for example, if you are carrying a sign decrying police brutality and yourself become an innocent victim of police brutality, that day you are an OWSer. but if the next day you get released from the hospital and rape another protestor, then on that day you're not an OWS'er. OWSdom, therefore, is protected from ever turning out to be a bunch of idiot kids with no self-reliance, self-discipline, or self-control; but instead becomes a mythical pure unicorn.

:doh NOW it makes sense. thanks whysoserious! :

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Why don't you stop spewing propagandist trash and stop twisting the words of your fellow Americans to suit your agenda? He said nothing of the kind. You're the one turning into good vs. bad, which is not where we're at all.

Every time you walk into a thread and create a post that basically fabricates an entire story about what someone said, it makes you look like a fool.

LaMidRighter said:

Okay, but if the protests did not take liberties not found within the rights then this would not have happened at all. This is the point in the contrast. Past that I was sharing a protest that I agree with. It's not complicated.

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The problem you people are having is that you keep comparing day-long protests to a two-month-long protest. There are no similarities besides the fact that they are both protests. Let me ask you, how many OWS incidents were there in the first day? How about the second?

But yeah, after a week or two, when it starts getting popular and more people are showing up (who aren't necessarily aligned with the original intent of the protest), **** is going to start going down hill.

whysoserious said:

The problem you people are having is that you keep comparing day-long protests to a two-month-long protest. There are no similarities besides the fact that they are both protests. Let me ask you, how many OWS incidents were there in the first day? How about the second?

But yeah, after a week or two, when it starts getting popular and more people are showing up (who aren't necessarily aligned with the original intent of the protest), **** is going to start going down hill.

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Okay, I made the point that the muslim protest did not overstay it's welcome. How many of my other points would you like to make easier for me?

LaMidRighter said:

Let me explain where I am at on that. The muslim proters are american citizens or otherwise here on guest visas. I am not commenting on them with that statement, I am commenting on the unamerican activities of some of the OWS protesters such as charging police, ****ting in public parks, and otherwise doing nothing but bitching and griping for their own personal reasons. I am proud of what the muslim protesters did whether or not I ultimately agree with them.

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Funny, America is the only country I know of with a constitution that guarantees the rights of its citizen to carry arms in case of a rebellion against the government, basically the founders of this country believe in the possibilities of a citizen uprising in the future, a process which gave birth to the country itself, they wrote the constitutions to protect and prepare the citizens for such a possibility, and you think the OWS camping in a park, making noises, and resisting arrests is "unamerican"?

It's one thing to disagree with the OWS for their demands and purpose, but it's another to say that their protest is "unamerican" because they broke laws, the Civil Rights movement resulted in many activists breaking laws. If you use breaking laws and getting arrested as the measuring stick of a movement, then many of the leaders in the Civil Rights movement would be deemed nothing more than criminals - and in fact that's what many white Americans thought of them.

If the Muslim succeed in getting the objective through, good for them, but what if they can't with civil protests? Should they retire to their houses knowing they have protested and just live with the surveillance anyway? That's what happened with the Iraq War protesters. Is that the "American" thing to do?

LaMidRighter said:

Okay, I made the point that the muslim protest did not overstay it's welcome. How many of my other points would you like to make easier for me?

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I actually agree with you that the OWS movement has gone on too long. You won't get any argument from me there.

whysoserious said:

I actually agree with you that the OWS movement has gone on too long. You won't get any argument from me there.

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two long????

its only been two months.

Thunder said:

two long????

its only been two months.

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Every day for two months. Can't they take a break or a shower? Have they changed one thing? Are they close to changing anything? Have they picked a goal yet? The OWS protest started out noble enough, but it has turned into a joke.

whysoserious said:

...Have they changed one thing? Are they close to changing anything?....

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how long did Abolition take?

women's suffrage?

voting rights for 18 year olds?

abortion rights?

whysoserious said:

I actually agree with you that the OWS movement has gone on too long. You won't get any argument from me there.

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Gotcha. I think we just had a miscommunication.

Thunder said:

how long did Abolition take?

women's suffrage?

voting rights for 18 year olds?

abortion rights?

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A long time, but I don't recall those happening strictly through occupying a public area and holding drum circles. Sure, sit ins were huge in the 60s, and those accomplished a lot because there were goals behind them. Everyone knew what Rosa Parks was protesting. The OWS movement would be far better off to leave the park, form some sort of committee, come up with a list of actual ideas, and then present them in an orderly fashion.

Can you name one specific thing that would satiate that crowd and cause them to leave? I can't, because I don't even know what they want, but I have a feeling they won't figure it out in the lobby of Deutsche Bank.

nonpareil said:

Funny, America is the only country I know of with a constitution that guarantees the rights of its citizen to carry arms in case of a rebellion against the government, basically the founders of this country believe in the possibilities of a citizen uprising in the future, a process which gave birth to the country itself, they wrote the constitutions to protect and prepare the citizens for such a possibility, and you think the OWS camping in a park, making noises, and resisting arrests is "unamerican"?

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You are kind of correct here. The founders most certainly did advocate for rebellion under the most dire circumstances, but that should always be considered a last resort. We are not out of options in this country and I will readily argue that some of the demands I've seen from these protesters while in the context of rebellion address grievances that would infringe on other's liberties, this is where I feel they are engaging in unamerican activities. But it isn't illegal to be unamerican whether people agree with my point of view or not.

It's one thing to disagree with the OWS for their demands and purpose, but it's another to say that their protest is "unamerican" because they broke laws, the Civil Rights movement resulted in many activists breaking laws. If you use breaking laws and getting arrested as the measuring stick of a movement, then many of the leaders in the Civil Rights movement would be deemed nothing more than criminals - and in fact that's what many white Americans thought of them.

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It's the degree of lawbreaking. If police actions are in question fight them in court, do not threaten their safety by resorting to violence as it won't end well for anyone. The civil rights protesters of the early movement did break some laws, but they did not infringe on the rights of the innocent and they willingly accepted being arrested. The violence came after the assassination of MLK.

If the Muslim succeed in getting the objective through, good for them, but what if they can't with civil protests? Should they retire to their houses knowing they have protested and just live with the surveillance anyway? That's what happened with the Iraq War protesters. Is that the "American" thing to do?

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I think this should be enough to at least open a dialogue, if not there are legal means to get one started such as a civil suit, or otherwise opening up an inquiry within the department. I don't see these people as willing to engage in violence, and their statements do not show the entitlement mentality that some of the OWS protesters presented. Now, if things got horrendous and the muslim community did engage in violence........I dunno, in a way it would be american if it was a last resort and in a way it would be unamerican, the country just kind of works like that.

whysoserious said:

Can you name one specific thing that would satiate that crowd and cause them to leave?

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Maybe if the 1% stopped hoarding the cash?

whysoserious said:

Now you are just putting words into my mouth. I don't think I ever said there were no bad OWS protesters, but I am pretty sure it is common knowledge (and common sense), that the homeless have basically "joined" the cause. Just use your head, cpwill, it's not that tough.

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you join the protest, you join the protest . You don't get to past-tense divide the group between the "real" OWS protestors and the ones making problems simply because the problems are inconvenient.